Episode 398 - Fowl Foul

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Speaker 1: maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social courtesy. That's old fashioned

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Speaker 1: watch act as host and hostess. They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person, real friendliness.

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Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to awesome etiquette

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Speaker 2: where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty.

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Speaker 1: On today's show, we take your questions on asking people for contact photos, asking for no gifts at your child's birthday party. A follow up question about names on a wedding invitation

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Speaker 1: and a neighbor's chickens that don't stay on their own property

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Speaker 1: for

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Speaker 2: awesome etiquette sustaining members. Our question of the week is about how to manage your social invitations when you know, you're sort of going to be out of socializing for awhile.

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Speaker 1: Plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a postscript on thank you, notes all

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Speaker 2: that's coming up.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm,

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Speaker 1: awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute. I'm dan post Senning

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Speaker 2: and I'm lizzie post

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Speaker 1: at least I'm pretty sure I'm dan,

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Speaker 2: that's usually my line. I'm pretty sure I'm lizzie post.

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Speaker 1: How's it going this morning?

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Speaker 2: It's good. It's good. You, you and I are, we're figuring it out. We're getting back to our regular routine after

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Speaker 2: after the the editing session and the holiday and all of that.

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Speaker 2: So it's good. It's good. I'm glad we know who we are

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Speaker 1: today and I will throw in. I've got a little daughter with a stomach bug right now. That's got me up and down and up and down all through the night and we always think we've got it completely beaten and then it seems to come back at night time.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I'm sorry you guys are dealing with that. I've heard there's a lot of kids stomach bugs out right now.

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Speaker 1: That's a

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Speaker 2: thing in our area.

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to take it as um sort of the, the good with the bad sort of speak or the bad with the good, We're just out and about more than we've been in a long time. So

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Speaker 1: we're dealing with the things that happen when you get out and about more. Like you pick up

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Speaker 1: those little colds and stomach bugs that were such a part of our life for years and years.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, Exactly.

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Speaker 1: Exactly. And I've been

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Speaker 2: noticing a lot of etiquette

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Speaker 1: in my own life as my whole social activity level is starting to tick up and it's, it's not jumping up dramatically, but it's ticking up. And the more and more contacts I'm making with people, the more time I'm spending out and about in the world, the more I'm thinking about traveling.

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Speaker 2: Mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm. That's coming up for you next next week, week after next. Right.

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Speaker 1: It is,

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Speaker 1: I'm definitely starting to notice a lot of the stuff we've been writing about for the last two years

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Speaker 2: is

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Speaker 1: more present in my life in a lot of ways. It's really quite remarkable as the most.

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Speaker 2: I was treating a friend to dinner out Wednesday night and it was one of those moments where

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Speaker 2: at the end of the meal she was like, no, no, no, let me like do the tip or something and I was like no, I really wanted to to treat you to this like I'm just so excited that we're getting together again and you know, and we were also, I should say like at the club that I golf at and so I as the member and, and she was looking to become a member and I really hope she does because she's like my favorite golfing buddy, this would be epic in my life.

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Speaker 2: But it was really one of those moments where I wanted to play that role of host

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Speaker 2: and I wanted to to do the treating and but she made sure to be like, well I'm gonna get it next time and I was like okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, you get it next time and she's sincere about it and I will participate as the guests next time, but it was, it was fun to kind of see some of the,

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Speaker 2: the back and forth etiquette e stuff going on in my own friendships,

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Speaker 1: dance a little host, guest dance and figure out how much to tip and who's going to do it.

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Speaker 2: Exactly. Exactly. For one brief moment, I got confused between

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Speaker 2: when I was a server at a country club and we got an automatic 18% tip no matter what. So you were very used to not seeing tips written onto the slips because it was just already included and I got confused for a minute because it was, I was like, wait a minute

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Speaker 2: does this club do that? Am I already tipped there? And then I looked on the line and there was no like automatic gratuity included. So I was like, no, I leave a tip here. I leave a tip here. This is how this world works lizzie

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Speaker 1: post and it's such a tease. You're back at a golf club that is awesome. The sun is shining. I wish I were headed to a golf club today.

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Speaker 2: Well I'm not headed to one today because it's too cold to play. Our course hasn't opened up

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Speaker 1: yet, but

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Speaker 2: the dinner in the dining room is open and it was really nice to, to see some old friends who will be golfing with a lot this summer and that, I mean that club does the social thing that I've always hoped for from it

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Speaker 2: as a single person adult years. I get a lot of really great social connections through that that I really, really value and I got to see

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Speaker 2: A whole bunch of my golfer friends and it's just, it's, it's awesome. It was, it was, it was a really good feeling being a part of that. So um, yeah, no, I'm stoked for it. I'm really stoked for golf season to start up. I got to play with my folks when I was down in Florida and I broke 50, which is a little bit tough for me to do.

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Speaker 2: Like I don't always do it. I've noticed since I've put on weight, I actually break it more often like pluses to gaining weight. Woo hoo.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, I know right like, but it was, it was really great to go play in florida with my folks and it was so warm and gorgeous and, and

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Speaker 1: just a great

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Speaker 2: time, like a really great time, but

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Speaker 2: come back here and it's not quite golf season yet. So I'm like, got the itch, but I can't do anything. So I'm like, I'll go have dinner at the club and see some of my golfing buddies and we're almost there. I'm

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Speaker 1: so glad we haven't played golf in years because you've definitely gotten significantly better than me.

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Speaker 2: Okay. So I have gotten significantly better than, than I don't even know if we've ever played golf together. Maybe not since. Not a real round, but I am still determined daniel post Senning to get you

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Speaker 2: on my golf course this summer and have you just not even worry about practice or anything? Just be like, just come out, no one is around, no one can even see you on that course is so gorgeous.

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Speaker 2: Like you just, you go out and hit a duff, hit a gorgeous shot. Hit a duff, hit a gorgeous shot, like

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Speaker 1: yes, it'll

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Speaker 2: be fun, it'll be fun and that's a famous line in our family, that's how I play golf.

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Speaker 2: But anyway, aside from me begging you to come out, um I am really excited about spring and all the socializing and like you been thinking about my manners, been wondering if I'm being awkward or not. It's a little less

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Speaker 2: awkward than it was when we first got our vaccines and people were starting to hang out.

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Speaker 2: I noticed a whole lot of, oh my gosh, I've been talking for forever. How did I get onto this tangent? Like a lot of self regulation and behavior right after vaccines first hit and we were really gathering for the first time this year, it seems a lot just more like everybody's busy in their own solitude and it's the like revelation of, wow, Getting out feels really good. You

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Speaker 1: know, that seems

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Speaker 2: to be the conversation this time

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Speaker 1: a little more natural. The pleasant surprises seem to be happening a little more just run into people or we've had social activity spontaneously develop around things like an invitation, let's get together, but it's raining, we could go do that thing instead and then, but I was going to do something with this family, so could they come and

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Speaker 1: next thing, you know, you're out with some people, it's

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Speaker 2: amazing, right? It works when we're allowed to do it, it works.

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Speaker 1: Well there's one other thing that works if we work it.

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Speaker 2: That's I bet I know where you're going.

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Speaker 1: But we've got some questions to get to lizzie boast before either of us could go enjoy this. Finding

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Speaker 2: that is very, very true. Let's get to some questions.

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Speaker 1: Let's do it

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Speaker 2: awesome etiquette is here to answer your questions. You can email them to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. Leave a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463.

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Speaker 1: Or you can reach

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Speaker 2: us on social media on twitter. We are at Emily Post on instagram or at Emily Post Institute

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Speaker 2: and on facebook were awesome etiquette. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your social media posts so that we know you want your question on the show.

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Speaker 2: Okay,

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Speaker 1: thank you.

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Speaker 2: Mm hmm.

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Speaker 1: Our first question this week is titled photos for my phone.

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Speaker 1: Hi, A E team. I recently have been going through and updating my contacts list and adding contact photos for them

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Speaker 1: For quite a few of my contacts. I had a somewhat recent photo that I could use but for some other contacts, particularly those that I haven't seen in a while. I had either no or a very outdated contact photo. I could also see it being very helpful for people who have a lot of contacts with the same name

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Speaker 1: or who have a whole client list. It could be really helpful to attach a face to a name.

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Speaker 1: I was wondering though if you had a sample script or just an idea of how to go about asking various acquaintances and even friends or family or whoever else ends up in your contact list about getting a contact photo.

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Speaker 1: It feels weird just asking them for a picture of themselves, especially for distant relatives or colleagues, friends I haven't seen in years and without any real context. It seems bizarre and random to ask,

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Speaker 1: would it be rude to ask someone close to them for a picture? I'm thinking of asking my cousin to send me a picture of my aunt but I don't know if she would have approved of that picture or if she would have preferred a different one. Sometimes if I don't have someone's picture, I will look to see if they have any public pictures on social media.

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Speaker 1: However not everyone has this or has an updated social media account,

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Speaker 1: but I would still love to put a face to a name.

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Speaker 1: Any thoughts best wondering which is which?

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Speaker 2: Oh, wondering which is which? This is not weird or strange at all. In fact, my operating system, I have an iphone and it automatically tries to update photos and contacts of people when they've updated their own personal contact in their own system, like

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Speaker 2: dan yours hasn't done it to me yet. But the little prompt would say like

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Speaker 2: when I click on you as a contact, it would be like updated contact name and info or photo updated photo for this person like question mark and it would automatically updated if I clicked into it, I handle my phone a little differently and so I often don't click into that but I think this is a, is a really common practice. I don't think it would be strange to ask people directly, but you did already do the sneaky thing I was gonna suggest which is just grab one of their like their public profile like photos off profile or something that's already,

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Speaker 2: I want to say been approved by them and uploaded to a very public space. But I know that not every photo is personally approved. Like if you were on your cousin's page trying to grab a picture of that on, I wouldn't consider that necessarily an approved photo of the aunt if that's what you're looking for.

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Speaker 2: But the ants own page, her own social media profile page

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Speaker 2: grabbing one that she's set up herself or posted herself. I think that would be totally fine.

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Speaker 2: But dan, before I give any sample script or maybe you want to give us a sample script today, what do you think about asking people for for contact photos or even just using that system of applying a photo to a contact anything we should be watching out for etiquette wise.

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Speaker 1: Well first of all I'm just applauding the effort of keeping a contact list current and

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Speaker 1: it's oftentimes the first step towards a good etiquette project. I'm going to write some thank you notes. I'm going to make an effort to reach out to people on their birthdays

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Speaker 2: having

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Speaker 1: a current contact list and something that you, you pay attention to an update and use.

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Speaker 1: It's always an aspiration of mine. I'm forever, I'm gonna update my contact list. That spreadsheets going to be in great shape for this year's holiday cards and it's

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Speaker 2: a perpetual project.

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Speaker 1: It's, it's ongoing and I just admire the effort and I admire the attention that's going into it. I'm taking a little inspiration from

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Speaker 2: it. The

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Speaker 1: other thought I have is very personal, which is, I don't know if I'm

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Speaker 1: A really big dork or if I'm really cool because I picked a contact picture when I first set up my phone close to 10 years ago now and it's the same one and it's on everything. It's like a little piece of clip art. It's like a tree that I thought was cool on a pink background and

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Speaker 1: I was trying to figure out a way to make a joke about N F T apes or something and I realized I didn't have enough language in my brain to do it. I don't exactly know what they are, but I know people are using little clip art to represent themselves now and

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Speaker 2: I was

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Speaker 1: Way ahead of that game, like 10 years ahead of that game,

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Speaker 1: but as far as the actual etiquette of asking someone for a picture on board with pretty much everything that you've said in terms of harvesting pictures from public places, social media is public. So it's fair game. I think you're spot on in thinking about the pictures that people use to represent themselves versus the pictures that other people

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Speaker 1: just post your probably in pretty good shape, pretty safe

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Speaker 1: territory using a picture someone uses to represent themselves.

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Speaker 1: I know that I always find it delightful when I'm using pooches phone where she has really cool pictures associated with a lot of her contacts

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Speaker 2: and

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Speaker 1: when people call you get these pictures that come up that are

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Speaker 1: like someone doing an

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Speaker 2: amazing yoga pose or like a cute cuddle with their kids or something and it

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Speaker 1: evokes a certain feeling or thought in you. It's, it's like, oh this is Alka and I love Alka.

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Speaker 1: So she's really, you know, personalized that she's found images that means something to her. I don't think there are things that she would necessarily share or think of as public. They're really there in her contact book for her use. I would mention that. I've been surprised that all the places my little clip our tree has appeared. How often

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Speaker 2: right now in our google doc

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Speaker 1: when I'm interacting with people that that's the default that's getting pulled and that there is getting displayed to them. So

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Speaker 1: I think thinking more about your own image and how you represent yourself as sort of bigger etiquette question in terms of how you're representing someone

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Speaker 1: in terms of asking for a picture. I think that it's a relatively low stakes ask if you're asking them for a picture that they'd be willing to share, but I liked the self awareness wondering, which is which showed in wanting to provide a little bit of context. That letting someone know why you're asking for a picture isn't a bad idea. It doesn't

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Speaker 1: cost a lot and it doesn't leave them wondering. And I actually thought your sample script, hit it right on the nose, I could read it, but I think it'll sound better in your voice.

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Speaker 2: So you read it. Let's no, let's have you read it because even though I wrote it, you know, if someone else tries to, it's kind of cool to hear it in a different person's voice, you know, Although cause you're gonna you're gonna have to read those exclamation points and I've put a lot of them into it.

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Speaker 1: I'm already self editing out

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Speaker 2: hyo

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Speaker 1: I hope you've been well, I've been adding contact pictures to all of my phone contacts and was wondering if you would send me a pic so I can add yours as well. I totally understand if you don't want to, but I thought I'd ask hope it's not weird,

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Speaker 2: you cut you cut out some other stuff too. It was a good show, It was like you edited it. It was a shortened version of it totally.

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Speaker 2: I think it works well. I think just that this, this type of behavior is not uncommon nowadays and if someone just explains a little bit about what they're going to use a photo for, I think most people will, will be like, oh yeah, totally. Here you go. You know, thanks for asking. And

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Speaker 2: I think that's, that's completely understandable. If I got a message like this, I'd be like, oh yeah, sure here's one I like, like there you go, enjoy.

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Speaker 2: But it's like the behavior of associated or adding, excuse me, a photo to a contact. Not uncommon. And for the handful of people that you really, they don't have social media and you haven't hung out with them in a while, but you still love to run this kind of treatment that you're doing for your contacts through as many people as you can.

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Speaker 2: Great way to touch base with someone. Great way to just yeah, like if I received that, I'd be like, oh, that's so cool,

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Speaker 2: Who's he from wherever is like thinking about doing this and I'm still included in the bunch. Like, you know what I

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Speaker 1: mean?

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Speaker 2: Even if it was family, I'd be like, oh, cool cousin Casey is like, alright, alright, he's adding me to.

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Speaker 2: So I think as long as you explain what you're up to, what you're going to be using the photo for that wondering which, which is which should have no problem with this, this sample script or with people and because you

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Speaker 2: that line at the end totally understand if you don't want to, but thought I'd ask

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Speaker 2: allows for it to be understood right from the get go. You've given them that out, you've given them the, not the permission to say no, they always had it, but you've given your own understanding if a no is what has to be returned to you as a reply. And that makes it just so much easier for people I think,

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Speaker 2: and I don't think you'll have much trouble getting photos from folks,

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Speaker 2: but I do think it's nice to to add that in just in case someone is not down with it.

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Speaker 1: I want to wish wondering which is which is the best of luck on this project. And now I'm off to update my contact book.

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Speaker 2: You do that,

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Speaker 1: but if you have a sincere interest in photographic work,

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Speaker 1: it would be worthwhile to investigate the field carefully.

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Speaker 1: Some phase of photography may become your life work.

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Speaker 2: Our next question is titled a no gifts gathering.

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Speaker 2: Hello,

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Speaker 2: thank you for your thoughtful podcast. I have a question about Children's birthday parties. I am planning a joint party for my soon to be four year old and two year old sons,

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Speaker 2: this is a kids party at a gymnastics gym. We will have a separate small family party on another date. My question is this is it possible to have a no gifts? Kids birthday party. My friends whose Children will be invited to the party.

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Speaker 2: Tell me that if we host a party particularly at a venue with a cost associated, you simply cannot request that no one brings gifts.

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Speaker 2: It sounds like they, as guests would feel awkward or uncomfortable with this and I certainly don't want them to feel uncomfortable.

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Speaker 2: However, our kids really don't need anything. They will be thrilled to play with their friends at their favorite hangout and then dig into some birthday cake.

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Speaker 2: If folks insist on bringing gifts, I do have some preferences. Consumable items like sidewalk chalk and bubbles are good. I know my kids will use those things and they won't create excessive plastic waste or take up space in our house. Long term

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Speaker 2: clothes, books and money for their savings accounts would also be welcome gifts. However, it seems strange to make such specific requests, which is why I thought no gifts please would be a better option.

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Speaker 1: I

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Speaker 2: was also toying with something like no gifts please. Most especially no toys. The kids have plenty exclamation point. That's all in quotes as one quote, no gifts please, Most especially no toys. The kids have plenty

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Speaker 2: perhaps phrased in a gentler way, but ideally still brief,

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Speaker 2: but it also feels a bit rude or strange to follow up no gifts with specifications about a type of gift.

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Speaker 2: Is there a way to message any of this that will make guests feel okay about not bringing a gift?

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure I'm comfortable with a gift registry for a child's birthday or do I just need to suck it up and graciously accept the gifts? I would likely donate some of the toys, which also feels rude.

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Speaker 2: I was also considering requesting donations to a charity in lieu of gifts ideally centered around something the kids enjoy. For example, PBS, kids programming or the nicu where my four year old stayed in his first few days of Life.

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Speaker 2: Thank you again for your wisdom and guidance on all things etiquette sincerely a mom who just tripped over a toy. I think every, every parent knows that. Ouch the lego on the floor.

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Speaker 1: I think every parent certainly can. I'm checking my pockets right now. They usually have the toys that I've been stepping on and just picking up and stuffing in my pockets to put away later

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Speaker 1: as I'm hearing, you read this question, let's suppose. I'm thinking in my mind. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Good instinct there. Yes. Follow that

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Speaker 2: instinct.

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Speaker 1: Um, there's so much going on here. There's so many questions around kids, birthday parties and gifts and kids birthday parties. It's a big stage in life to learn how to give and receive gifts and oftentimes that's happening around birthday parties

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Speaker 1: and it's a place where people are often breaking out of just getting just beyond their immediate family circles and groups. So

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Speaker 1: you're taking those skills on a road test in a slightly larger broader community

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Speaker 1: because of that. There are some, I will, I will call them hard and fast

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Speaker 1: or even firm etiquette rules. But there are some, there's some experience here that other people have had that we can lean on and it's a

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Speaker 2: good way to word it because I like that a lot, some experience to lean on

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Speaker 1: and some of the advice that we give about this I think is has proved out and some of it can sound a little tough at times, but I think there are good reasons for it and I definitely like to go through the question and answer as clearly as possible. A lot of the very good questions about kids, birthday parties and gifts that came up. But I also just have to mention

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Speaker 1: as we were starting to record this show, I'm in the,

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Speaker 1: the bedroom at home which sits above the garage and I could hear the garage door opening downstairs, which means the

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Speaker 1: kids are heading out to play in the sort of front yard area and what we will do is draw with sidewalk chalk and blow bubbles. So

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Speaker 2: totally

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Speaker 1: a little part of my heart, just pitter patter and with a longing for spring, as I read that part of the question because I did my first big chalk drawing just two days ago before the snowstorm lizzie post

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Speaker 1: and the bubbles were sitting right there next to it. So I could, I could feel like I could picture this, this whole scene,

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Speaker 1: the first really firm etiquette answer that I want to give and I know lizzie Post is going to support me is that the

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Speaker 1: best and only gift instruction to use on an invitation is the very simple and clear language no gifts please. And it can feel like it would be fun to tinker with that to elaborate on it, to play a joke with it because it is a topic gifts that kids birthday parties that people

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Speaker 1: tend to care about. That really simple language and simple approach. I like to

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Speaker 1: presented as your friend as something that makes the decision really easy to take advantage of that sample language, that clear script and all of the messages that it sends and if you really don't want gifts at the kid's birthday party, that's the,

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Speaker 1: the best place to start. That's the indication to give people, it's entirely appropriate.

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Speaker 1: And if all of those other questions that come up afterwards come up, you can address them as they come up, but that's a great place to start.

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Speaker 2: It is, it is and I'll back us up even one step further a lot of the time dan and I will start this type of advice with actually encouragement to do the opposite of what you want to do and you can, you can ignore us, You can run with the no gifts please. It is actually okay to do

00:24:07

Speaker 2: on something like a birthday invitation when it comes to kids birthdays. You do hear us advise a lot to really consider allowing gifts that kids birthdays because it is such an excellent moment for kids to practice their good gift giving and gift receiving skills.

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Speaker 2: These are skills that we don't have everyday moments to build upon

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Speaker 2: and kids, birthday parties provide a really great moment. There is a lot of social skill building that goes on when kids have to sit around and watch other kids be given something when kids go with their parents or at least discuss with their parents what the child they're gonna be celebrating might like as a gift.

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Speaker 2: I can remember being really proud of some of my birthday gifts as a kid and knowing my best friend or

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Speaker 2: or that kid in my class or my my group, my soccer team or something would really like this thing and being excited to give it to them.

00:25:06

Speaker 2: I also remembered sometimes being uncertain about a gift because it wasn't a toy or a game or something that I knew well, but the other kid had asked for it. Okay, I'm going to date myself. Your pogs were a thing when I was a youngster and I wasn't into them, but my friend Graham was and I remember

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Speaker 2: it was probably the last like little kids birthday party that I went to and he had asked for pogs

00:25:30

Speaker 2: and I got them for him and he went nuts for them and I didn't get it. But I saw how happy he was with the gift. And I remember the thank you note he wrote for them

00:25:40

Speaker 2: and that that's such a memorable little, it's a little thing from childhood. He probably doesn't remember it, but I do. But these these moments, these gift giving moments can build some really great skills that can help give kids confidence in future situations in life. And so

00:25:58

Speaker 2: I would just say think about it as less an accumulation of a bunch of junk and more of a really great way to practice and solidify gift giving and receiving skills, both for your own kids and other kids

00:26:12

Speaker 2: dan tell me if I'm wrong here. But I think that rather than leaning on all the parents that you've kind of pre asked this question to, oh no, you can't do gift giving. You know, you can't say no gifts for a kid's birthday party where you're paying for all these kids to come too

00:26:30

Speaker 2: an activity center or something like that, you know,

00:26:33

Speaker 2: like, oh, it's just too much like treating us to stuff and the birthday kids aren't getting enough. And I understand where those parents could be feeling that, but I also want to give the encouragement to do the party the way you're really envisioning and and

00:26:49

Speaker 2: being comfortable with saying no gifts please if that really is going to be the thing. Okay, cool. It's like, I hope I'm not like stepping on parenting toes here, but I think that it's your party or it's your kid's party and you are the one managing it and because this isn't

00:27:06

Speaker 2: such a terrible thing, even though we often encourage the gifting at kid's parties, I think if you really want to run with this direction, you should feel okay doing that and, and just go for the like dan said no gifts please and leave it at that on the invitation.

00:27:22

Speaker 1: And people do it for different reasons. It can be more complicated with a combined party, a party happening somewhere else. The follow up that I was thinking is that

00:27:32

Speaker 1: in the same way you've heard from parents ahead of time, that oh, but we have to get something, we just, in the way you're even sensing a feeling of awkwardness from people about not bringing gifts to a kid's party, particularly one where they feel like they're being well hosted and even treated although that's not for the record

00:27:52

Speaker 1: part of the equation, that's not a, it's not a pay for your plate kind of affair or thinking that that that applies here,

00:27:59

Speaker 1: but the reality is that it is something people enjoy so much for all those reasons that lizzie was just talking about and it's entirely possible that people will ignore the invitation advice that you give the direction that you give on the invitation. It's also possible that people will call and ask what to bring, what your child likes, that they look for some sort of

00:28:21

Speaker 2: some

00:28:22

Speaker 1: sort of line or thread to follow or they'll wonder if there is a theme for the party or a particular type of gift that you're doing this year. Enough parents have been through this and enough family members know to ask that it's

00:28:35

Speaker 1: it's not unreasonable to expect that call to happen.

00:28:38

Speaker 1: And whether you've indicated that you're not accepting gifts or whether you've left all mention of gifts off the invitation

00:28:45

Speaker 1: being ready for that conversation is a really good idea. And

00:28:50

Speaker 1: all of the things that you talk about as sort of elaborations on on your thinking about gifts, particularly the direction that you'd like to give, the appropriate time to give any of that direction is when someone asks for it. And I think lizzie, I,

00:29:05

Speaker 1: well, we'll guarantee is right there with me when I say your instinct to avoid the gift registry for a birthday party is spot on. You don't want to go that far with it. But having a couple ideas, some some ballpark areas, some areas of interest that your kids are are focused on at the moment or a particular type of toy that you know, they love.

00:29:27

Speaker 1: I love the chalk and

00:29:28

Speaker 2: Bubbles. I love the chalk and bubbles suggestion that one I

00:29:32

Speaker 1: feel like there's

00:29:32

Speaker 2: never enough of them. Yes, exactly. No, exactly.

00:29:37

Speaker 2: I would probably caution against going the direction though of like money for their savings account. I think of that as something more like

00:29:47

Speaker 2: a closer knit circle. That might be something like your parents, you might suggest that too if that's something that they would enjoy giving towards or an aunt or something like that. But with friends, unless your friends are your chosen family and this is something you all kind of do within your own little circle.

00:30:06

Speaker 2: Typically you don't go the direction of asking for money and there are things like fiber parties, which is a little different because that's for like a specific toy,

00:30:15

Speaker 2: but money for savings isn't really one that people go for in in this crowd. I would say dan before we we leave this answer, I did just want to add a slight caveat, you gave really good advice to keep the no gifts please Simple. And and we give that advice even in our book that like keep it simple, keep it clear.

00:30:35

Speaker 2: There's another phrase that I think people are really used to that might help encourage them to get in that no gifts please spirit

00:30:43

Speaker 2: and that's your presence is a present or if you want to expand on it, your presence is a wonderful present already. No gifts, please could be a way to help people understand that. Like y'all coming and doing this like is the thing that's like the big, awesome thing for the birthday and it's, it's what our kids wanted is what we wanted for them.

00:31:04

Speaker 2: Like without blaming all that. The presence you're presence is your present is a present or is a wonderful present. Kind of gets people in that spirit of recognizing what you mean when you say no gifts, please. Like we're already really content with what's going on. Don't worry about the gifting.

00:31:21

Speaker 1: Just don't ask me to be the one spelling presents and present.

00:31:24

Speaker 2: Oh goodness. A mom who just tripped over a toy. You've got a lot of really fantastic thoughts um going on and a lot of good self checks going on here. Um and I hope that whichever way you go with this, whether it ends up being with gifts or without or no gifts, please party

00:31:43

Speaker 2: that your kids at four and to have an awesome time with their friends at the gym and that it is just a really fabulous dual birthday party.

00:31:52

Speaker 1: Best of luck with the rest of the planning.

00:31:56

Speaker 1: Don't fret dear, You're just growing up. Oh, I wasn't fretting just thinking

00:32:01

Speaker 1: how they're growing up

00:32:03

Speaker 1: so fast.

00:32:07

Speaker 1: Okay,

00:32:08

Speaker 1: mm hmm.

00:32:11

Speaker 1: Our next question is titled Names and nuptials and lizzie Post loves it because the answer is embedded in the question.

00:32:18

Speaker 2: It is, it is our audience is so smart.

00:32:22

Speaker 1: Hello lizzie and dan after listening to your recent questions on wedding invitation etiquette. I have a question of my own

00:32:30

Speaker 1: my the bride's divorced parents are paying for the reception caterer. The groom's parents are not in a position to contribute financially but are providing services for the wedding that both save us money and will be very special for us.

00:32:42

Speaker 1: The groom and I are paying for all remaining costs.

00:32:46

Speaker 1: Would it be too cumbersome to list everyone's name on the invite.

00:32:50

Speaker 1: My parents would like to be listed by name and I would like to accommodate that request. However, I don't want to list just my parents as the groom and I are contributing about half of the financial cost of the wedding.

00:33:02

Speaker 1: Is it selfish of us to want some acknowledgement of that on the invite.

00:33:06

Speaker 1: In addition, if I am including both the couple and my parents, I feel like I should include his parents as well.

00:33:12

Speaker 1: Would it be appropriate to include the following or is this far too cumbersome?

00:33:17

Speaker 1: I appreciate any advice or suggestions you have. Thank you. And then the sample language is given below line one together with their parents line to Miss Bride's mom line three mr Bride's dad

00:33:31

Speaker 1: Mine four Mr and mrs Groom's parents

00:33:34

Speaker 2: Line five is a space

00:33:37

Speaker 1: is a space then we have bride on its own line and on its own line groom on its own line. Another space line followed by

00:33:44

Speaker 1: request the honor of your presence dot dot dot

00:33:47

Speaker 2: and then we get the sign off anonymous

00:33:49

Speaker 1: anonymous.

00:33:51

Speaker 2: Exactly, exactly, anonymous. Bride is not part of that dan, I've got to say, I don't see any problem with this particular one. I and I I'm pretty good on my, my wedding invitation wording,

00:34:05

Speaker 2: but what I like about it is often what you'll see is together with their parents and then it just drops straight to the bride and groom's name or the couple's name.

00:34:14

Speaker 2: Um and that could be within and it could be with the two and is the jewish wording, which I personally really like this wording, even though I grew up catholic, I really, really like the word and instead of the word too,

00:34:27

Speaker 2: it doesn't mean that too is bad, this is just a personal preference too, is often used for christian weddings and there are tons of people who use either or not knowing that they have traditionally religious affiliations with them, so I think it's absolutely fine, whichever you choose in them, but I actually really am liking

00:34:47

Speaker 2: seeing the parents names along with that language of together with their parents and that like I just, I really like how it's set up.

00:34:55

Speaker 2: I feel like I understand everything that's going on with this when I read it and look at it and that really is what you're going for when it comes to creating invitations and you want it kind of like everything should should read like a decent sentence or at least somewhat like a sentence structure, even though it's all broken up by line,

00:35:15

Speaker 2: it tells me who is hosting, that it's really the bride and groom and their, all their parents that are hosting together.

00:35:22

Speaker 2: And I love the community spirit of that. I'm a big fan of

00:35:27

Speaker 2: be gracious and include anyone no matter what their actual dollar financial contribution was is that if they were really providing, especially if they're a parent and they were providing some kind of service. I know a lot of weddings were for instance, um

00:35:44

Speaker 2: like at my best friend's wedding, one of the aunts did the flowers, she wasn't like included on the as one of the hosts of the party and and that made sense to everybody, including her, but I love this idea of getting all of the parents involved and represented as host of the party.

00:36:02

Speaker 2: And I love the fact that the groom's parents are contributing in the ways that they can and that the bride talks about how meaningful that is to to them as a couple.

00:36:10

Speaker 2: But anyway, I just thought this was great. I thought it was really great and it was so cool to see someone like come in with the suggestion that that's like that. Yeah, go for that suggestion, you know?

00:36:20

Speaker 1: Well the only thing that I have to add before I want to ask you to read this without all the line breaks that I had in, but with that sense of of continuity where yeah, I love that idea was you post that

00:36:33

Speaker 1: whatever choices you make with your invitation that giving it a read and hearing how it sounds and that

00:36:39

Speaker 1: it might not follow traditional sentence structure, you might not have punctuation, but you just want to coherence to it in terms of how the language works and the impression that it creates that in all of the well what word goes where and what gets its own line?

00:36:54

Speaker 1: Big picture. If you read the thing, does it communicate to you? Does it communicate the things that you wanted to?

00:37:00

Speaker 1: Um

00:37:01

Speaker 2: and this one does,

00:37:02

Speaker 1: it really does. And the other etiquette point that I I like that's being followed here is that when people have strong feelings or when people really care about something, you're doing your best to accommodate that. And you've got people that participated that really want to be named and acknowledged in that way, and you've made an effort to do that. And I think that's

00:37:21

Speaker 1: really good etiquette as well.

00:37:23

Speaker 1: So without a whole lot more to add lizzie post, would you read us out, let's hear how this sounds.

00:37:27

Speaker 2: So together with their parents. Mrs Bride's mom, Mr Bride's dad, Mr and mrs groom's parents, The bride and the groom

00:37:36

Speaker 2: requests the honor of your presence and obviously the bride and the groom would have their real names in it because we don't have access to those. I wasn't gonna fudge it and make new names

00:37:46

Speaker 2: same, same with all the parents names. But I it was clear to me what was happening who was getting married and the fact that together the bride and groom with all of these people who are their parents. And I love that because it identifies for the guests who the parents of the bride and groom are. And that's so nice when you're a guest and you can see people at a wedding, maybe you don't know them personally, but you know the couple getting married and you could say ah and this is

00:38:11

Speaker 2: MS Bride's mom and mr Bride's dad. And I can tell from that the construction because they're on separate lines that they aren't together. But I can also tell from the construction of the groom's parents that they are a couple like it, it just says so much so well, so I'm very I think it it really, really works

00:38:30

Speaker 1: anonymous bride, we think you have a good lead on your invitation. I know there are more decisions to make when it comes to actually getting those invitations printed and we wish you the best with all of it. And the rest of your planning.

00:38:44

Speaker 2: That diamond is symbolic of a pledge that will be made this year by nearly a million and a half couples. The pledge to love and cherish to honor and obey

00:38:54

Speaker 2: the pledge to share a lifetime

00:38:57

Speaker 2: and build a heritage for new lifetimes to come.

00:39:03

Speaker 2: Our next question is titled fowl. Like chicken feces

00:39:09

Speaker 2: highlight dan and lizzie. Our neighbors are lovely people and we've lived next door to each other for the past three years. They have checked on our pets when we've been out of town and we have passed along lots of clothes and toys to their Children who are younger than ours. However, I would say that we mostly have a surface relationship, which is totally fine.

00:39:29

Speaker 2: Our neighbors also have four chickens for the first year or so. The chicken stayed entirely in their enclosed backyard. However, now they are free range, they can fly over our neighbor's fence, so they are frequently in our front yard driveway backyard everywhere. Unfortunately,

00:39:48

Speaker 2: the chickens also poop everywhere,

00:39:50

Speaker 2: dan and lizzie. We live in a city.

00:39:53

Speaker 2: So these types of animals are not the norm in our area. We generally wear shoes outside, but our kids do run out barefoot on occasion. I can't think of any way to nicely say, can you please come clean the chicken poop from my yard.

00:40:09

Speaker 2: Can you think of a way to say that,

00:40:11

Speaker 2: thank you. Another lizzie with an E. Not that we don't like the wise, it's just fun to find your lizzie's with the IEA's

00:40:23

Speaker 1: script. It's all capitals with like extended, multiple consonant letters, exclamation points. I know how you feel when you meet lizzie's with i E s.

00:40:34

Speaker 1: Um,

00:40:34

Speaker 2: I

00:40:37

Speaker 1: feel like I've met a kindred spirit here as well and totally pooch and I have been the ones experimenting with keeping chickens. It was so much fun and I think it's gonna happen again this year. I think this is the year where we're

00:40:50

Speaker 1: not pregnant enough that we can imagine doing it again. And we definitely ran with a free range chicken model. And I have not figured out what to do with the foul foul

00:41:01

Speaker 2: foul, foul

00:41:02

Speaker 1: really containing them, or at least keeping them off the yard where you play and run and roll in the grass. It's it's necessary. I can't imagine dealing with neighbors whose chickens were loose on my property.

00:41:15

Speaker 1: I'm wanting to tell jokes like, oh, I feel like I'm in a George Washington etiquette book and we're, you

00:41:22

Speaker 2: know, settling

00:41:24

Speaker 1: Colonial disputes from the 1700s of my chicken, eight year garden.

00:41:30

Speaker 1: I think there was an Emily post example with a chicken that did some damage in someone else's shrubbery or something,

00:41:37

Speaker 2: a dog. But yes, there is. I

00:41:40

Speaker 1: also want to make jokes about, you know, good fences making the best neighbors. I want to make a joke about, well, you could just eat one of those chickens, you could just have dinner if they're over in your

00:41:50

Speaker 2: yard.

00:41:52

Speaker 2: Free dinner.

00:41:54

Speaker 1: Sorry,

00:41:55

Speaker 2: that's so funny.

00:41:57

Speaker 1: There's potential humor there, but I'm not funny. I'm not a stand up comedian. The best thing that I can do is give an etiquette answer, which is, it sounds like you need to have a real talk with your neighbors, and I agree.

00:42:07

Speaker 2: 100%.

00:42:08

Speaker 1: The reality is that they're not taking care of something that they're responsible for and they need to know how it's impacting you in order

00:42:16

Speaker 1: to adjust their behavior and fix it. And I wouldn't,

00:42:19

Speaker 1: for me now I'm getting into the how of it. The, what is that conversation needs to happen

00:42:25

Speaker 1: in terms of the, how I'm thinking a light touch might be a good place to start that they've managed for years

00:42:33

Speaker 1: prior to keep these chickens contained.

00:42:36

Speaker 1: It's probably an option for them. It's probably something they can do if they know that you don't love a bucolic scene with chickens running in your backyard or that you love that

00:42:44

Speaker 2: scene, but

00:42:45

Speaker 1: you don't like the reality of the pu the feces and that is a reality for animals and

00:42:54

Speaker 1: that comes along with it. And if you don't want to have that going on in your yard, you shouldn't have to and you don't have to and it's up to them to fix it.

00:43:02

Speaker 1: And it's such a clear line that I don't even feel like you need to push it too hard. You just need to let them know that it's crossed and the likelihood is that they will deal with it

00:43:12

Speaker 2: dan. I like the idea of starting this in a in, in what I think of, even though it's advice that we give generally at Emily post. I think of it as dan's advice and that is the

00:43:24

Speaker 2: prime the person and ask, ask if now is a good time to talk about the subject. So hi Janet, I was hoping I could talk to you about the chickens is now a good time

00:43:33

Speaker 2: and it gives her just that breath to understand what the topic is you want to discuss and and figure out whether or not it is a good time to discuss this topic. And then after that, let's say, she says, yeah, now is a totally fine time. What's going on?

00:43:48

Speaker 2: I would then say something like, you know, we're finding that the chickens are ending up in our yard driveway, front yard too often for us to feel comfortable with it. We're happy to help out when you're away. We love doing that. But we were wondering if there's a better way to keep them in your yard

00:44:04

Speaker 2: the rest of the time or not even the rest of the time. Just keep them in your yard period dan. I didn't address the specific poo issue. Do you think we need to,

00:44:13

Speaker 1: I don't think it's something you need to avoid.

00:44:16

Speaker 1: I think that it's such a reality for people that care for animals

00:44:21

Speaker 2: and chickens in particular

00:44:23

Speaker 1: and just a little reminder that yeah, they are fun and they are amusing and even entertaining for the kids. Maybe that, that there's a real,

00:44:33

Speaker 1: there's a real, there's a real mess that comes along with them and there's a reason

00:44:38

Speaker 1: chicken coops are smelly places and there's a reason we line them with hay that you can just pull out and throw away

00:44:44

Speaker 2: because because

00:44:47

Speaker 1: foul can be foul and anybody that keeps chickens is going to understand that and if you remind them that that's happening in your backyard and that you're not comfortable with it, I think any reasonable neighbor and it sounds like these are reasonable neighbors you have a good relationship with is gonna gonna understand that that's their responsibility,

00:45:04

Speaker 1: lizzie with an ie at the risk of descending too far into dad humor. I don't think you need to be chicken about talking about chickens with your neighbor. You were on really, really firm ground here and we wish you the best, having this potentially difficult conversation that I have a feeling it's gonna go pretty smoothly.

00:45:24

Speaker 2: Oh, I love bad jokes, thank you so much for putting that one in dan. I just love it. That cracks me up lizzie with an ie good luck. We certainly hope that there is less foul foul in your future. Wake up chickens, chickens jump and fly from their roosts first and then the hands,

00:45:50

Speaker 2: they are white leghorn chickens wide awake now and waiting for breakfast.

00:46:01

Speaker 1: Yeah,

00:46:04

Speaker 1: thank you for your questions. Please send us updates or feedback on our answers to awesome etiquette at the Emily post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind, that's 8028585463. You can also reach us on social media on twitter. We are at Emily Post inst on instagram. We are at Emily Post Institute and on facebook were awesome etiquette. Just remember use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your post so that we know you want your question on the show.

00:46:40

Speaker 2: If you're enjoying awesome etiquette, we would love for you to consider becoming a sustaining member by visiting us at patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette. You'll get an ads free version of the show and access to bonus questions and content plus live calls with dan and myself.

00:46:59

Speaker 2: You'll also feel great knowing that you helped to keep awesome etiquette on the air and to those of you who are already sustaining members. Thank you for your support.

00:47:08

Speaker 1: It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer and the topics we cover today, we have feedback from anonymous

00:47:16

Speaker 1: dear awesome etiquette team. I wanted to share one additional perspective in response to the question from hesitant in healthcare in episode 3 96 about sneaking in behind people into restricted spaces

00:47:29

Speaker 1: when working in a secure facility where expectations about entry are clearly defined for all who work there, for example, that all people entering must badge in when entering a secure wing of the building.

00:47:41

Speaker 1: We can reasonably assume that anyone trying to sneak in is in fact someone who should not be there in the first place. In other words, anyone who should have access to that space should know better than to ask to sidestep this important security protocol.

00:47:56

Speaker 1: Just as safety and security considerations can supersede etiquette rules. So too should hesitant in healthcare feel at ease knowing they are prioritizing their duty to protect people and perhaps sensitive information, above all else.

00:48:11

Speaker 1: Kind regards anonymous

00:48:14

Speaker 2: anonymous. Thank you for that fabulous feedback. It's an excellent, excellent point. That sort of flips the question on its head and I really appreciate it. I'm hoping more people will feel confident in saying those knows if someone asked them to hold that door.

00:48:28

Speaker 1: It's always nice to have a real strong sense of where the clear boundaries and lines are.

00:48:35

Speaker 2: Thank you for that feedback. And thank you for sending us your thoughts and updates. Please keep them coming. You can send us your feedback or update to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com

00:48:45

Speaker 1: or leave us a voicemail or

00:48:46

Speaker 2: Text at 802858 kind. That's 8 028585463.

00:49:01

Speaker 2: It's time for our post script segment where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette And today we're going to talk about a total etiquette classic. Thank you. Notes.

00:49:12

Speaker 1: This has probably been the topic for,

00:49:15

Speaker 1: I don't know, double digit post scripts already at this point in the show and I just think it's time to do it again because

00:49:23

Speaker 1: it's awesome gratitude. Thank you notes. This is one of my favorite etiquette topics and

00:49:29

Speaker 1: it's very much on my brain right now because of a very personal situation in my life where we had this baby a few weeks ago and the world has been so supportive of us and by us, I'm talking about me and puja and

00:49:44

Speaker 1: and the girls, but mostly me and PJ because we're the ones who received most of this. Um but whether

00:49:50

Speaker 1: support comes in the form of a meal, train or a little presents or just a little note welcoming baby.

00:49:58

Speaker 1: There are so many people in our life who have reached out to us and and done really kind nice things for us in the last two months or people coming to stay with us and take care of our kids um

00:50:09

Speaker 1: the more I think about it, the more things I think about that I have to be grateful for and to express gratitude over

00:50:17

Speaker 1: and

00:50:18

Speaker 2: I was gonna say, are you going to share the fun part though? I

00:50:21

Speaker 1: am, I am going to share the fun part and I think I mentioned it on an intro to the show a couple of weeks ago but we have an activity that we do with the girls now, that's our thank you note Writing factory where we lay out on the kitchen table,

00:50:34

Speaker 1: all of the makings for doing. Thank you notes. So I go get out the stationary, the envelopes, the cards will write the names of all the people that we have to write notes to on post its and we stick them on the table

00:50:45

Speaker 1: and Anisha goes through and peels off the post its and she can write the names

00:50:50

Speaker 1: and on the cards and then we write a little note and then each of the girls takes a turn. Aria is not a big drawer yet. So she uses these stamps, these different stamps to do hearts and animals and shapes and Anisha will draw something may be specific to the people. Oh this is not a nanny. So I do not know nanny's house or this is

00:51:11

Speaker 1: Brendan. So I do them with a tent or a kayak and it's fun. It's something that the girls like doing and we actually produce these thank you notes that just delight me as a parent. We include them in the process. And I think they're better than the ones I can do on my own um

00:51:30

Speaker 2: which

00:51:30

Speaker 1: you know, have, say a nice thing, but are, you know, usually pretty standard straight up notes.

00:51:36

Speaker 2: You don't add drawings to yours or stickers or stamps because not

00:51:40

Speaker 1: usually

00:51:42

Speaker 2: and it does, it adds a little something I love to do the kid version. It's really fun to do the kid version of the notes. Yeah,

00:51:47

Speaker 1: so it turns out that this is having an impact, not just on me but on my lovely wife who's

00:51:54

Speaker 1: also going through a re entry period professionally or she's preparing for it. She's starting to tackle some professional tasks again in her downtime around the house and

00:52:04

Speaker 1: I found her the other day writing thank you notes to some people she knows professionally for some opportunities that they put in front of her. And

00:52:13

Speaker 1: I've been aware that she was interacting with these people and that this was something she was thinking about.

00:52:18

Speaker 1: But I

00:52:20

Speaker 1: professional etiquette expert and author,

00:52:23

Speaker 2: it

00:52:24

Speaker 1: had not occurred to me that the appropriate thing to do after someone helped you like that professionally was write them a thank you note and she asked me said is this a good thing to do? I

00:52:32

Speaker 2: said are you kidding? This

00:52:33

Speaker 1: is the best thing you could possibly do, give

00:52:36

Speaker 2: entire seminar specifically on this. One thing I

00:52:40

Speaker 1: had to sit down at the table and asked, I said do you want my best lines about why you should do this? Do you want some research some data on what a good idea this is to do.

00:52:50

Speaker 1: It was a nice little moment for the two of us actually we had a chance to connect and um she had questions that sounded very similar to the types of questions we get on the podcast.

00:52:59

Speaker 2: It

00:53:00

Speaker 1: was a very personal reminder for me of how significant and important the process of expressing gratitude is, how good it can make you feel and also the impact that it can have. So I was thinking why not talk about it as a postscript why not talk about some of those

00:53:14

Speaker 1: fundamental components to that basic note, Just as a reminder for everyone and

00:53:20

Speaker 1: Lizzy, I know that you and I actually have

00:53:22

Speaker 2: slightly different

00:53:24

Speaker 1: versions of the sort of mad Libs. Thank you. Note that we write

00:53:28

Speaker 2: and they're

00:53:28

Speaker 1: both, I think quite good and I was actually hoping that you would share your template today

00:53:34

Speaker 2: and then we'll share your, can we share yours as well? We'll do them both.

00:53:37

Speaker 1: Absolutely.

00:53:38

Speaker 2: We dan and I have two different kind of like methods to the madness on this

00:53:43

Speaker 2: and we both like each other's notes. So it's not like a competition between the two of us or maybe it's not anymore,

00:53:50

Speaker 1: we'll take feedback votes in favor and

00:53:53

Speaker 2: we'll take jokes, team dan team Liz. I go for the short and sweet note

00:53:58

Speaker 2: and the reason I really love promoting this note is that I think for some people, especially who um I mean email is more our form of letter writing today than letter writing even, is that you can definitely find fully grown adults who've never written an actual letter in their life.

00:54:16

Speaker 2: And I think sometimes the thought of sitting down pen paper in hand, pen card in hand

00:54:22

Speaker 2: can feel daunting to people. And so

00:54:25

Speaker 2: what I really love about this first example is that it's three short sentences

00:54:31

Speaker 2: and they all are very common and accessible sentences for the the act that we're doing right. So the first obviously right Dear or high or whatever your greeting is and the person's name or the names. And then the first sentence is just a greeting. Maybe you wish them well.

00:54:51

Speaker 2: I often like I hope this note finds you well or I hope you're enjoying whatever season it is that we're in.

00:54:58

Speaker 2: And then the second sentence is very clearly your thank you,

00:55:03

Speaker 2: thank you so much for the beautiful set of stationary that you gave me. Doesn't it look so gorgeous. You know, make some kind of comment about the direct Thank you. And then if you want to extend it, extend it into some kind of praise for

00:55:19

Speaker 2: either the item itself, the favor you're thanking someone for or

00:55:23

Speaker 2: just the generosity, the thoughtfulness on their part. Maybe you don't like the stationary, but you're going to say thank you so much for the stationary. It was so thoughtful of you to think to do this, something like that.

00:55:36

Speaker 2: And then the third line is again, it's a second version of wishing them well, but often something like hope we're gonna get to see you next summer or I really hope maybe, you know, something that they're working on, you give some kind of wish, wishing them well as you close.

00:55:53

Speaker 2: And it ends up being just three little sentences

00:55:57

Speaker 2: really easy to approach. Easy to complete doesn't take you much time you want to put some heart into it, but you don't have to put a whole ton of thought into it to get through that. Um so that's the short, the short and sweet. Thank you. Note that that I find really accessible,

00:56:12

Speaker 2: but it does not in any way diminish or you know, replace what I think of as

00:56:19

Speaker 2: dans longer. Thank you. Note that I really love dan. Do you want to tell everyone what your method to the madness is?

00:56:24

Speaker 1: So I have a four sentence note that I like to teach and it was

00:56:28

Speaker 2: five, I thought it was five before. No, it's for whatever

00:56:35

Speaker 1: That is 33

00:56:36

Speaker 1: longer

00:56:38

Speaker 2: because these are these

00:56:39

Speaker 1: are such short notes and ultimately it should be a manageable doable task. So, you know, three sentence for sentence, it's actually

00:56:49

Speaker 2: significant

00:56:50

Speaker 1: difference.

00:56:51

Speaker 2: And

00:56:52

Speaker 1: I'll tell you that for these purposes, I wish I'd had your three sentence note in my mind

00:56:58

Speaker 2: because

00:56:59

Speaker 1: we had a little bit of difficulty with one of my four sentences and I think we ended up going with a three sentence version,

00:57:05

Speaker 1: but

00:57:05

Speaker 2: like

00:57:07

Speaker 1: you, I obviously there's the date and the salutation, but for me, first sentence is the explicit thanks for the thing

00:57:15

Speaker 1: and I like your little warmup sentence, you're sort of ease them in. But I also sometimes I go straight in with the thanks, I tell people, I don't

00:57:22

Speaker 2: think, you

00:57:23

Speaker 1: know, run with your lead. Thank you so much for X. Y or Z. Or I'm writing to say how much I appreciate you. Can you can elaborate on that sentence. It could be a longer version of that sentence. It can also be very clear, very direct version of that sentence.

00:57:40

Speaker 1: The second sentence I like to tell people is the only original thought that you're responsible for in the note. That's the place where you get to personalize the message in some way make some sort of connection

00:57:52

Speaker 1: either to the particulars of the thing you're thanking for to the person

00:57:58

Speaker 1: themselves. But that's the

00:58:00

Speaker 1: that's the opportunity to personalize in a way that's unique to you or that experience. And

00:58:06

Speaker 1: it's the thing that gets you out of it sounding too wrote if you are leading with that. Very simple and direct. Thank you so much for X. Y or Z. You could almost think of the second sentence is the comma and then the elaboration on that thought.

00:58:20

Speaker 2: Mm hmm.

00:58:21

Speaker 1: The 3rd sentence is the

00:58:23

Speaker 1: optional sentence where I say if there is some sort of forward thinking or forward action that you want to address. That's the place where I would do it. I'm

00:58:34

Speaker 1: so looking forward to working with your team. Can't wait to see you this spring. I can't wait for you to meet the baby. Thank

00:58:42

Speaker 1: thank you so much for that blanket you knitted. It's just absolutely perfect. It is the softest I've ever touched can't wait for you to meet little William.

00:58:52

Speaker 2: So

00:58:53

Speaker 1: if there's a future action that's connected to the thing, that makes sense. That's the third sentence that you could call optional. But I kind of look for it. I like that possibility of using that note

00:59:03

Speaker 1: to fill the relationship up a little bit.

00:59:06

Speaker 1: The fourth sentence is a repetition of the thanks. Thank you again so much for X, Y or Z. It's a chance to just say it in a slightly different way.

00:59:14

Speaker 1: Close out with your closing, you've now really kept the focus on the thanks. The focus is on the gratitude, but you've had a chance to build it out just a little bit in the middle.

00:59:22

Speaker 1: So for you, your your thanks is the meat of the sandwich or

00:59:26

Speaker 2: the heart

00:59:27

Speaker 1: of the sandwich, the veggie of the sandwich. And for me it's the thanks is the bread and there's something else maybe in the middle a little bit.

00:59:34

Speaker 2: Yeah, I tend to leave my like wish for the future as the closing and you you put it a little earlier. So it's like a slightly different flip. But I will also say that with both of our examples

00:59:45

Speaker 2: If you've got the words to elaborate by all means elaborate. Like there is nothing wrong with making a 567 sentence. Thank you note if you've got the words there and and the sentiment keeps to that thanks.

01:00:01

Speaker 2: I think the one thing we do tend to caution people against is about turning your thank you note too much into a here's what's happening with me Note, which is more of just a social note

01:00:13

Speaker 2: going by. And I think you really do what I love about both of our our our thank you notes is that they keep really tightly focused on the thank you.

01:00:23

Speaker 2: And that that is a good way to go. You can always send another note to catch up or give a phone call, something like that. And those are all appropriate things to say even as well wishes or moving on like your hope for the future. Hope we can catch up soon or something like that, totally fine too.

01:00:40

Speaker 2: But you don't want to go so far into and here's what's up with me and then start your kind of newsletter of yourself.

01:00:47

Speaker 2: So keep the focus to that. Thank you. And you will have a beautiful thank you note that I think with the exception of one awesome etiquette listener that we heard from will likely be appreciated by anybody who receives it.

01:00:59

Speaker 1: Well, I don't think this will be the last post script that we do on. Thank you notes either.

01:01:03

Speaker 2: Probably not eight years running. We've managed to talk about it a number of times

01:01:09

Speaker 2: because I really want to thank you for suggesting this post script today. I love the image in my mind of the thank you note factory with the kids, definitely something I'm gonna want to do with my niece and nephew in the future

01:01:25

Speaker 2: and really, really cool to hear about puja using advice that you give all the time. Like in her own personal life. I just love that little touch. So thank thank you for a wonderful postscript.

01:01:38

Speaker 1: Well you are most welcome and I'm sure we'll be back here again someday. These are letters of thanks and tell me which of these did you really enjoy the most here? This one from Alice made me feel good. I could tell just by reading it that she really liked the present

01:01:55

Speaker 1: here. Let's move there.

01:01:57

Speaker 1: Thanks a million for sending me the delightful book for my birthday. How did you know? I've been trying to borrow that very book for a week.

01:02:05

Speaker 2: We like to end our show on a high note. So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing out in the world and that can come in so many forms. Today we have a salute from rena

01:02:17

Speaker 2: Hi

01:02:17

Speaker 1: dan and lizzie. I have an etiquette salute to my mom francine.

01:02:22

Speaker 1: As Passover approached one of our most important holidays,

01:02:25

Speaker 1: I asked if I could bring my brother in law to my mom's Seder as he didn't have anywhere to go. She enthusiastically extended him an invitation excited for the new addition to our table.

01:02:36

Speaker 1: The Seder can sometimes be fraught as everyone navigates the Passover dietary restrictions differently

01:02:43

Speaker 1: without wanting to come off as ungrateful or judgmental. I tried to let my mom know that my brother in law is keeping very strictly kosher this holiday meaning he wouldn't be able to eat anything made in her house or served off her plates

01:02:56

Speaker 1: without any thought. My mom cheerfully asked what we could do to make him comfortable paper plates, buying certified kosher treats.

01:03:04

Speaker 1: When I replied, we bring some food prepared in his kosher kitchen and offered to bring enough for everyone. She told us that a salad would be nice, but we absolutely didn't have to share everything.

01:03:15

Speaker 1: These kinds of accommodations can be awkward and can stick out like a sore thumb when it comes to a huge and formal holiday meal.

01:03:23

Speaker 1: Moreover, since this relates to the topic of religious observance, I was worried she'd feel hurt or defensive or question why he's keeping kosher more strictly on Passover than he does the rest of the year.

01:03:34

Speaker 1: But the ease with which my mom not only welcomed a new guest, but happily accommodated his needs without interrogation was so wonderful to see

01:03:44

Speaker 1: she really reminded me that making everyone feel at ease is far more important than a perfectly matching set of dinnerware.

01:03:51

Speaker 1: The Seder dinner was beautiful and everyone felt welcomed and ready to celebrate the holiday.

01:03:56

Speaker 1: I only hope that I can emulate my mom's graciousness and generosity of spirit the next time I have friends over for dinner,

01:04:03

Speaker 1: sincerely rena in toronto

01:04:06

Speaker 2: Oh, I just love this salute. I love it. I love it. I love the, I love everything the mom did. I love the way the daughter set up her brother in law. Well for a visit to a house he probably hasn't been to like, that's just wonderful across the board.

01:04:24

Speaker 1: And I'll tell you, I particularly noticed the way that rena takes the experience of seeing what her mother is doing and takes it as a lesson and takes it as inspiration for herself and for the kind of host that she wants to be someday and rina just based on that being your impulse.

01:04:41

Speaker 1: I am sure that you are well on your way. Thank you so much for this salute.

01:04:47

Speaker 1: Bye.

01:04:50

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01:04:51

Speaker 2: you for listening

01:04:52

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01:05:08

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01:05:50

Speaker 1: Our show is edited by Kris Albertine and assistant produced by Bridget Dowd. Thanks

01:05:55

Speaker 2: chris.