Episode 391 - Retirement Party

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Speaker 1: maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social courtesy that's old fashioned

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Speaker 1: watch act as host and hostess. They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person real friendliness.

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Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to awesome etiquette

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Speaker 2: where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty.

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Speaker 1: On today's show, we take your questions on tipping the dog park staff, addressing noisy neighbors, a follow up question to our plant based dinner discussion and addressing a sudden change in someone's appearance

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Speaker 2: for awesome etiquette sustaining members. Our question of the week is about making etiquette around a tire more gender inclusive

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Speaker 1: plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a timely postscript on retirement parties.

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Speaker 2: All that's coming

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Speaker 1: up,

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Speaker 1: awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute, I'm dan post Senning

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Speaker 2: and I'm lizzie Post

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Speaker 1: and it's good to talk to you this fine afternoon.

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Speaker 2: I know

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Speaker 2: as we were in the process, I know folks will be listening to this much after while while you're on or possibly even back from maternity leave at this point, but it's, it is, it's it's been fun hopping on the mic kind of every other day lately.

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Speaker 2: Um but in between pre recording a whole bunch of podcasts. We've also been dipping into the design editing of the 20th edition and that's a really exciting process and I even feel like because it's a process that

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Speaker 2: um you haven't seen up close and personal in a while, I feel, you know what I mean? Like

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Speaker 1: I think in a while is very generous. I don't think I've ever been this involved in the book design

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Speaker 1: part of the project.

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Speaker 2: It's been fun for me, like watching you go through it because you, I mean you definitely helped with higher etiquette, like I ran everything by you and but you you largely left that to be in like my zone of do you like it? Do you not?

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Speaker 2: And this one, we're both bringing our opinions to the table and it's been a scary. That's true, but it's also really fun. It's fun sometimes to see

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Speaker 2: like an arc that you will go on because you'll start a and then you'll rise up and curve to like something that feels really different from a and then you'll come kind of like back down and around again, maybe it's a circle more than an arc,

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Speaker 2: but it's um it's also really fun to see the books starting to physically take shape and to be a visual thing,

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Speaker 2: you get so used to it in the word doc format or the google doc format that you're working in. It can be really jarring to like see it laid out or to see it as a sample of a layout and it's it's been fun seeing that get tweaked closer and closer to our our vision.

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean, and once again, I think you're so generous with the our vision because I think you have a much better sense of

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Speaker 2: it in

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Speaker 1: terms of where we're going than I do. And when, when you first brought this topic up, I was, I almost wanted to stop you and say lizzie post, help out everyone out there who's not

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Speaker 1: in my fortunate position of having been doing this with you for the last couple of months now. And what are the major components of the book design process? What are the elements? Because I mean even familiarizing myself with what choices we'd be making was an important step.

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Speaker 2: So our book in its contract, we determined would be I think it's called the two color and so you get like black and white or the kind of registered color of the type and, and um maybe some grays in between, I can't remember. And then usually one other color and for us that's of course our signature blue. And we're really, really excited for that. It's been a while since the book has picked up this color, but that was one of kind of the certain things we walked in with that, we were really able to say this, this is what we're looking for

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Speaker 2: and beyond that, the types of things that you're picking out in design are things like not just the font of the body text, but the font of all the different headers and chapter headers and openers and even little things like the fonts that are going to be for a

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Speaker 2: really specific subsection or? Our book for instance, has a number of resource guides at the end of it? Reference guides

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Speaker 2: at the end of each chapter and and those kind of can have a different look to them and the even I think we already said page numbers, but there's lots of different places where the font could be the same, could be a larger size, could be

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Speaker 2: m bold, could be italicized. There's lots of different ways to play with, even just totally different fonts.

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Speaker 2: So you're, you're looking at how the fonts all play together in the various ways that words are used throughout the book.

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Speaker 2: And then there's things like, and this is where I think it always starts to get really fun are for instance, each chapter, your chapter opener, The page spread. Is it going to be a full, a full two page spread with just color or design on one page, sort of like a blank page

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Speaker 2: and then the chapter opener on the right. Are you going to put the chapter opener on the left? Are you going to have maybe just

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Speaker 2: The title of the chapter and the number of the chapter on the left and the opener on the right. And for us, we decided in this book that we were going to put a quote from the 1922 edition at the start of every single chapter and it relates to that chapter obviously.

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Speaker 2: And what do we want that quote? How do we want it to be positioned? Is it centered is it italicized? Is it a different font from the other fonts in the book? Because it's kind of like a a little

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Speaker 1: special section?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Like a different voice. Uh so those are some of the things and within that you're looking at. Okay, so are we just doing a color on the background of the chapter opener? Is it going to be a pattern? What about illustrations,

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Speaker 2: dan. And I just sent in the illustration list, which was the two of us going through and saying, boy, we need

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Speaker 2: an illustration of how to hold these utensils and where these glasses go and what forks are, what forks and what spoons or what spoons. And so there's a whole lot of decisions to be made. Even things like whether or not,

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Speaker 2: um, certain elements are going to be bound by a box that sort of breaks up the running text of the book or whether you leave that that section boundless, I guess without a box around it. Um, so all kinds of, all kinds of design decisions to react to

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Speaker 2: because you you demure a lot. But I've got to say it's been really fun to see and hear your reactions to the things as they come in and to see how drastically things could change from the first samples that we get to the very last, you know, and and the little decisions that get made along the way. It's been really fun doing this one with

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Speaker 1: you. It's well, it's been exciting for me because it's,

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Speaker 1: this book is something I've been very familiar with as a piece of content, as a set of ideas in my mind and

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Speaker 1: IITS and I think you have the real idea of where we're going, but I very much do in my own mind because we've talked so much about the 22 edition being our model. I sort of think about a book that looks like that 1922 book and what's been really fun for me is watching all of those little decisions that you're talking about

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Speaker 1: now happen and come together to actually create a final product that looks like that book that I'm imagining. And it's been a lot of fun to see that final product emerge as something that I like the look of

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Speaker 1: and reflect back on the process and really realize and recognize all of the various components that come together to create that impression of the book and not just of the ideas that it contains. And

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Speaker 1: I want to thank you for encouraging me along the way, because for me, a lot of it's been a process of learning to trust myself and to trust that those thoughts that I hear in my own mind when I see something and I'm responding to it

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Speaker 1: are worth sharing. Aren't going to derail the project might actually contribute something to it aren't going to um necessarily be a problem for someone else, even if they don't

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Speaker 1: like what I'm saying or agree with it, that it, that it works and it functions to,

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Speaker 1: to move the discussion along and to consider different points of view and it's a different kind of process than I'm used to doing. So I also want to thank you for for taking the time with me.

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Speaker 2: Oh well, it's very easy to do, it's my pleasure, I'll say. Um but it's, it's been really fun to get to do this one with you and I, I also appreciate that for the most part, we're pretty well lined up on our visions for the book, which makes it a lot easier.

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Speaker 1: But

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Speaker 2: it is a really fun part part of the process and it will continue and we will be so excited to share

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Speaker 2: the final version with you all when it is launched in september

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Speaker 2: in the meantime, cousin do you think that we should get to some of our wonderful listener questions?

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Speaker 1: I think we should. Let's do it,

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Speaker 2: awesome etiquette is here to answer your questions, You can email them to, awesome etiquette Emily Post dot com leave a voicemail or text at 802858 kind that's 8028585463

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Speaker 2: or you can reach us on social media on twitter, we're at Emily post inst on instagram. We're at Emily Post institute and on facebook were awesome etiquette. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your social media posts so that we know you want your question

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Speaker 1: on the show.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm.

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Speaker 1: Our first question this week is about a pooch park.

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Speaker 2: Sorry, that's really cute. Bridget,

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Speaker 1: Hi Lizzie and Dan. In our city we have to dog parks that are actually businesses each complete with an enclosed yard, patio tables and outdoor bar. People can sign up for monthly memberships that cost around $25 or choose to pay per visit

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Speaker 1: you paper dog, not per person. If that's important for the answer.

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Speaker 1: They employ bartenders, front desk staff and bark rangers. I know, so cute. Even though pet owners must stay in the dog park, the park rangers are there to make sure it's a safe environment, enforcing the rules, breaking up any dog arguments and picking up dog mess is that owners may have missed at the dog

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Speaker 1: at the door to the park.

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Speaker 1: They have a bark rangers tip jar.

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Speaker 1: Here's the question. Should we tip each visit? Maybe only on the visits that the bark rangers have specifically helped us out.

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Speaker 1: Does the answer change if we're making a morning of it or just stopping by quickly during a lunch break.

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Speaker 1: If we go multiple times a week tipping a dollar or two. Each visit adds up quickly.

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Speaker 1: We very much appreciate the bark rangers but don't know the proper etiquette for tipping them sincerely,

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Speaker 1: dog mamas,

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Speaker 2: dog mama's before we actually answer your question, I have to gush over how cool this sounds. Gosh, I live right near a dog park. It is not this atmosphere at all. I first of all love the idea of the bark rangers. I for so many reasons, you, you often hear us talk about things like

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Speaker 2: if someone was being loud in the theater that you should go to the usher or that you should seek out management if there's a problem or someone who has the authority, the standing is connected to the place. And dog parks are often places where there, there isn't anybody monitoring anything and I love the idea of a bark ranger being the one who is more skilled at separating dogs who might be, you know, having, having a little bit of a

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Speaker 2: fiery encounter. Um but being, being able to kind of be on it and that they're not there to necessarily range the people like to come up and tell you you missed your dog poop over there, but but to just be there to facilitate that place, I think that's, that's really, really cool

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Speaker 2: and this is totally new, right? Like this is something I haven't heard of. This isn't in the

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Speaker 2: the 19th edition of Emily post etiquette, it's not an article on our website yet, but this is what I think of when I think of new etiquette and where we would try to look at traditions and some other types of tipping experiences to think about how we might behave in this new tipping environment for us,

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Speaker 1: lizzie post. I did the exact same equation in my mind. I said, boy, I haven't heard this one before, that means it's new etiquette, no manners and

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Speaker 1: the expectations aren't going to be so established, They're not going to be a social expectation where everyone around you is looking for you to perform in a certain way.

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Speaker 1: At the same time, something has been suggested, the very presence of that tip jar indicates that someone is thinking about this as potentially the type of service that you might want to tip for.

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Speaker 1: And in a lot of ways, I think that puts a lot of the onus back on you, the patron, the person receiving the service to figure out what's going to make you feel really good about tipping in this particular situation.

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Speaker 2: I couldn't agree more. And if I'm, if I'm thinking about this particular situation for me, what comes to mind and it might just be, because we are recording, you know, february early february in Vermont like snowstorm on its way. I'm thinking golf folks, I'm thinking about

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Speaker 2: the, they're often called Backroom boys, but it's not just boys who, who do the job and it's their wonderful gentleman who clean your clubs get your bag out and ready for you, things like that.

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Speaker 2: And some members tipped them every single time. Some members really lean on them and even tip them more every single time. Some members only lean on them occasionally and just tip them on those occasions and other members come in at the end of the year, the end of the season and give a large tip that gets distributed to all of those who work in the back room

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Speaker 2: and, or bag room is another way to think of it other than back room.

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Speaker 2: It is one of those things where it depends a little bit on how much you use, you use their services, how much you lean on them and, and also a little bit what your personal tipping style is. Some people really appreciate that big sort of end of the year recognition of the whole season or a whole period of time, you know, year, period of times worth of,

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Speaker 2: of service and other people feel much more comfortable making sure that every time they visit they're, they're giving a little tip. Um, but for just the reason you stated the boy that could get expensive quick, you know, sometimes you get the adjustment of, okay, just when they, I engage the service of the park rangers.

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Speaker 2: So lots of different options here, but it's it. Again, I'm trying to use

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Speaker 2: a different situation I'm familiar with that has kind of a similar, they're there every time they're doing stuff every time, but maybe not always interacting with you, you and your dog every time. The only

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Speaker 1: thing that I can think to adhere was the post is what a great conversation to strike up with your fellow patrons of this business.

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Speaker 2: I

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Speaker 1: walk past that tip jar and I always wonder what other people do, would

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Speaker 2: you mind sharing

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Speaker 1: or, or maybe you offer up your approach, but um,

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Speaker 1: if it would make you feel more comfortable in the spirit of tipping should make everyone feel good if having a sense for how other people do it is one of those things that makes you feel better about it and that's

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Speaker 1: a feeling I get from many people that listen to this show because people listen to the show to figure out what other people think about these things. That's another thing that you can do to kind of get a sense for how the community is responding

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Speaker 2: dan. That's a really, really great point and a good place for a lot of people to turn to

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Speaker 2: dog, mama's, thank you so much for writing in with this question. It is so cool to be talking about a new area of potential tipping and we would love to hear if you do hear from some of those other members as dan suggested what the, what the word on the street is about the tipping situation. We would really welcome your feedback. Thanks so much for the question.

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Speaker 2: Well here's something jean, will you play with me? I want to have something to do to

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Speaker 2: come on jean and play Now. Penny stop that says jean. Can't you see that? I'm very busy. I have no time to play now.

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Speaker 2: Our next question is titled Noise from the neighbors. Talk about medical classic Dear lizzie and dan. I hope both of you are doing well. I found your podcast about a year ago when I started my new job that allows me to work from home. I often listen during my lunchtime walks outside and it's a great way to take a break from work.

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Speaker 2: I'm having trouble with a noisy neighbor and I'd like to get your advice on how to address the situation with consideration, respect and honesty.

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Speaker 2: I've lived in my apartment for over a year and I found that the neighbors who share a wall with me are always quite loud.

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Speaker 2: They make noise at all hours of the day. They play their tv at what seems to be an unreasonably high volume and are constantly yelling.

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Speaker 2: I graduated from college about 18 months ago. So apartment living isn't new to me. I lived in apartments throughout college, but these are by far the most noisy neighbors I've ever dealt with.

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Speaker 2: I'm typically a very non confrontational person and I believe that's why I've put up with this for so long, but it's recently become too much to brush under the rug.

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Speaker 2: Do you have any advice on how to address the issue

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Speaker 2: as weird as it sounds? I've never actually met these people. I moved in during the pandemics of the typical neighborly introduction didn't seem quite right at the time

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Speaker 2: because of that. I don't want my first interaction with them to consist of me telling them to quiet down.

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Speaker 2: I've drafted, I don't know how many letters to send them, but all of them make me sound like a grouchy old man. Is there a better way? I could handle this? I would love some advice on how you might handle the situation.

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Speaker 2: Thank you in advance for your advice. Take care a neighbor who just needs some sleep.

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Speaker 1: A neighbor who just needs some sleep. As lizzie said at the start of the question, this is indeed a classic. I think that we have

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Speaker 1: considered on this show the question of noisy neighbors from just about every direction possible. And I mean that quite um

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Speaker 1: literally we talked about it in the ceiling and the floor in the walls and across the streets

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Speaker 2: in sight

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Speaker 1: lines by

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Speaker 2: volume.

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Speaker 1: And

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Speaker 1: I personally find this to be really tricky and difficult questions because relationships with neighbors are so important. The communities that we live in are made up of our neighbors and that reality lives alongside the reality that's represented by the cliches

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Speaker 1: good fences make good neighbors. That oftentimes we don't choose our neighbors. They're not our friends, they're not our family in the same way as our friends and family are. And

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Speaker 1: sometimes having a little distance, a little social distance is an important part of living well with neighbors. I don't find it strange that you haven't met the people that live right next door. And at the same time,

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Speaker 1: I also would give the etiquette advice that for me, my my first thought here is I would try to get to know my neighbors and that might open up all kinds of possibilities for dialogue, for communication or just for understanding

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Speaker 1: they might know a little bit more about you and be better able to judge and assess how what they're doing would impact you. You might have a better sense of what they're up to, where they're coming from, whether

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Speaker 1: they've got more people in the apartment than they did at the start of the pandemic. You mentioned that recently, things have sort of come to a head and whether that's a change in the circumstances or whether that's

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Speaker 1: you've reached a certain threshold where it's harder and harder for you to ignore

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Speaker 1: identifying what those moments are in your life and being able to understand them. The potential for that to happen just comes into existence as you get to know each other a little bit. So

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Speaker 1: I would consider a bit of a charm campaign and I wouldn't think of it as deceptive. I wouldn't think of it as, oh, I need to get these outcomes, but I'm going to start here because I need to warm them up before I make the ask. I think there's some reality to that kind of practical thinking,

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Speaker 1: but I think there's also something sincere and honest about. I want to get to know these people I do want to be able to talk to about these kinds of things. And a good first step is to really start to build some accord.

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Speaker 1: So from an etiquette perspective, what are those approaches? How do you get to know your neighbors greetings? First introductions can happen

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Speaker 2: anywhere,

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Speaker 1: get anywhere or you can kind of manufacture them and make them happen just a little bit, but

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Speaker 2: you know, go over and knock on the door. Hi, I'm so and so I realized I've lived here a year and I never introduced myself figured it was time and that's all it has to be. You know,

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Speaker 1: as always our master of sample scripts.

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Speaker 1: No, take advantage of the fact that you haven't met yet and make that the excuse to make that connection.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 1: My only other thought about the discussion that might follow at some point that raising an issue,

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Speaker 1: it can often feel like a really big deal

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Speaker 1: if you bring it up in the context of I hope you would feel comfortable talking to me about a similar issue or in the context of the discussion where you're inviting a little back and forth with your neighbors about sharing the space, sharing the building, sharing a wall.

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Speaker 1: Those might be

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Speaker 1: ways to soften the blow. Um lizzie post. I know you have some other ideas about ways to make this conversation happen. I want to turn it over to you before. I also have a couple ideas. I think you might specifically do yourself

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Speaker 2: well first of all I think right off the bat making a connection with the neighbor is a way to help eliminate that part of the problem for sure.

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Speaker 2: And I can understand how a lot of people wouldn't feel comfortable having that first interaction come with a hello. This is you know, I'm your neighbor and I have a problem with you. Like it it makes sense.

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Speaker 2: The jokey side of me thinks it would be really funny if like the next time you pass in the hall you should be like dude you were so right about that laundry fight that you guys were having last week. Like

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Speaker 1: you know, I

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Speaker 2: don't think it's the way to go but the humorist in me is just like oh you could get so cheeky because you probably know a lot about these two people that they don't realize that you know

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Speaker 2: and I I don't actually think that that's the way that you should go with it. But

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Speaker 2: I had a friend who lived in apartment complex in L. A. And she texted me a note that her neighbor had left and oftentimes we say you know just dealing with people face to face is the way to go. They can hear the tone in your voice, you can communicate so much,

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Speaker 2: but I gotta give this neighbor a plus marks for a very humorous and sweet note and I remember asking my friend how she felt when she received this because it was a, it was a fairly intimate personal correction that this neighbor was hoping to make in, in my friend's life

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Speaker 2: and she really did a good job of, of joking around. They did not know each other at all. It's written to my neighbors and signed from your neighbor and they share a wall. So it's clear who it was. But it was really cool because my friend felt like she both, she both got very sympathetic for the other person as opposed to getting defensive

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Speaker 2: like oh who are you to dictate things in my life instead it was oh my gosh, we're impacting someone else.

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Speaker 2: I know I don't like it when I'm impacted by someone else. We should be careful about that. Like we should, we should find a way to, you know, move the room around or something like that And I do think that leaving a note can be a good way to go. I know you said you've written a bunch of them that you, you haven't felt right sending. So it might be that adding a little bit of humor to it could help.

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Speaker 2: It might be also just keeping it.

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Speaker 2: I want to say just like nice and realistic. One of the things I think

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Speaker 2: is just true about apartment living is that you are going to hear certain things. I mean, I mean some buildings are built amazingly and you don't hear anything between the walls, but a lot of apartment buildings you're going to hear people and whether it's the person upstairs or you're the person upstairs to someone downstairs or it's the walls, the left and right of you.

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Speaker 2: Often times there is a moment where you got to tell someone to quiet down and sometimes that's a broom stick to the wall.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes it's going over and saying, hey guys, could you keep it down or would you be willing to turn something down? And I think,

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Speaker 2: okay, maybe not the broom stick to the wall, but I think a lot of these and maybe even the broom stick to the wall, I can talk myself back into it. They can be really subtle, easy ways that apartment dwellers are very comfortable with experiencing. And I know in this situation we don't know anything

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Speaker 2: about these neighbors next door. So we don't, we don't know how they handle it. So it is, it could be a little bit of a risk as opposed to that in person more direct approach,

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Speaker 2: but I tried my hand at a sample script of a note, you might need to adjust it, but

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Speaker 2: I kind of went off the one that my friend from L. A. Had sent me, but, but put it more into your noise situation and I came up with high neighbors. I know we haven't met yet, but I've realized that I'm fairly privy to your life since moving in. I've noticed the walls are thin enough for me to hear a lot of what's going on in your apartment and I was hoping you might be willing

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Speaker 2: to keep this in mind when you watch tv or listen to music. Love the bob seger by the way. Or maybe you say like I'm watching the Crown to

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Speaker 2: While I certainly don't want to encroach on your home life at all. I'm hoping you might be willing to help keep it from spilling over into my apartment. I'm really looking forward to meeting you in the future, your neighbor, you know, to the right, to the left, you know, 103, whatever whatever helps identify you.

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Speaker 2: Um, it's not perfect. Not my best sample script ever. Even reading it now. I might, might make some adjustments like that line. I've realized I'm fairly privy to your life. I don't, I don't know if I like that one so much rereading it, but I do like the idea of letting them know that that they, their life is being exposed to you in a way that they might not be aware

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Speaker 1: of

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Speaker 2: and that you would, you would love to help correct that or fix that. I'm also wondering because about a couple of things you might be able to do to help soundproof your own house a little bit your own apartment, you know, rather than maybe like a tapestry upon a wall. Could you put a quilt or a rug or something like that? I've seen that used as a, as a way to help

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Speaker 2: sound and a thin wall.

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Speaker 2: Um, but I do think at some point either the conversation or if you find the right language for a note that it's just not unreasonable at all in apartment living to tell someone that you're, you're hearing them more than you'd like to

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Speaker 1: before you go the

00:27:17

Speaker 1: white noise machine or the well fitted earplugs that just do a phenomenal job or even one of my personal favorites these days. I can't believe how

00:27:29

Speaker 1: remarkable the technology has gotten the noise canceling headphones. If you've really got a situation where you've got to get some sleep or you need to be able to focus on something, there

00:27:40

Speaker 1: are definitely some options that really put control of that sound environment in your hands

00:27:46

Speaker 1: Lizzy. I really want to jump back into your script. Also because you, you, you did one of the things that I was also going to suggest whether you're having the conversation in person, whether you're doing it with a note, whether it's a planned conversation or whether it's that, um, that in the moment, ask, I love that idea that approach it or even when the things happening so that it really becomes specific to that instance. And that that kind of

00:28:11

Speaker 1: interactions really very natural happens often in apartment buildings.

00:28:16

Speaker 1: Um was

00:28:18

Speaker 1: making your ask specific of someone else so that it's not that you're just asking someone to listen to you complain about how noisy they are,

00:28:26

Speaker 1: but that you've actually got an ask there. Maybe it's specifically the tv, maybe it's after a certain time at night or before a certain time in the morning or

00:28:36

Speaker 1: it's the drum set or that or if it's something that you can identify about your life. I was thinking about those in the moment asks and sample scripts. Like I've got a big meeting in the morning I'm trying to sleep for or something like that.

00:28:50

Speaker 1: If you could give someone a sense that no, I work at these times. So my sleep schedule is this and you might not know that those are things that other people can start to

00:29:00

Speaker 1: understand build around and respond to in ways that aren't totally disruptive of their lives. And they also have a specific thing to to do or to take action on as opposed to just trying to generally be less noisy in their apartment,

00:29:17

Speaker 2: a neighbor who just needs some sleep. You are dealing with a classic and a difficult yet very common problem and we are hoping that the mix of those three

00:29:27

Speaker 2: gives you some confidence that this is really something that is okay to address and that our answer provides you multiple ways of potentially doing that.

00:29:37

Speaker 1: Getting ready for bed at a regular time is one of the most important habits. You can learn a quiet hour or two before bedtime is part of this habit.

00:29:45

Speaker 1: It makes you feel relaxed and sleepy, ready for bed.

00:29:51

Speaker 1: Our next question is titled More about meat,

00:29:54

Speaker 1: Hey Daniel and lizzie. I recently found your podcast and have loved listening to your episodes. I appreciate the thoughtful response you all provide.

00:30:03

Speaker 1: Your most recent episode where someone asked about serving a plant based dinner made me think of my question.

00:30:08

Speaker 1: I was a vegetarian for 10 years but I'm not anymore. I unfortunately am a bit of a picky eater when it comes to meet.

00:30:17

Speaker 1: If I am not technically a vegetarian, is it okay to request a vegetarian meal on a wedding response card? Some response cards allow for the selection of your entree, but if it does not, is it rude to write a note?

00:30:30

Speaker 1: I know people do if they have a dietary restriction, but if this is just a preference then I wasn't sure.

00:30:36

Speaker 1: Thank you, picky meat eater,

00:30:39

Speaker 2: picky mediator, thank you so much for this question. I mean I go the route of saying that anyone should be able to order the vegetarian entree, that if it's if it's what they want, if it's what they would like if they eat a diet that

00:30:53

Speaker 2: sometimes they meet, sometimes they don't and sometimes it really matters what kind of meat is in there. And if you can't control that, then you want the vegetarian diet. I think that is absolutely fine. There's no reason not to

00:31:05

Speaker 1: agreed.

00:31:06

Speaker 1: In fact, lizzie post, I used to do this all the time. The place I can think of the most where it jumps to mind is on airplanes where oftentimes I think the vegetarian meal is clearly the best option and

00:31:19

Speaker 1: I oftentimes exercise that option in that situation, even though I love

00:31:25

Speaker 1: beat an M. A meat eater,

00:31:26

Speaker 2: I

00:31:27

Speaker 1: did have a couple of sort of caveat thoughts in mind

00:31:31

Speaker 2: because we do have this question of if it's not an option, do you right in the, I think that

00:31:36

Speaker 1: the idea that there would be a vegetarian option is common enough at this point that it doesn't feel demanding to me to request a vegetarian meal,

00:31:46

Speaker 1: although if there was no mention of it, I would maybe ask myself a little bit about the context. Am I being invited to a barbecue or something like that? Is my ask really likely to require something of the host where I wouldn't want to explain to them that I'm

00:32:02

Speaker 2: not actually a

00:32:03

Speaker 1: vegetarian, but I would really prefer it if,

00:32:06

Speaker 1: because of the amount of extra work that it would cause them. But if you can answer that question to yourself pretty reasonably, it's not a lot of extra work for the airplane to give you a vegetarian option as opposed to one of the meat options.

00:32:20

Speaker 1: I think there's like we said at the start, no reason not to go for it. In fact you probably should because it means you're going to enjoy your meal more and that's probably what your host is looking for.

00:32:29

Speaker 2: When I think about the response cards that don't have a mention of a meal on it. For me, at least in my experience, this has meant that there will be a buffet and there's usually a wide range that accommodates for a number of different things. I remember my sister's wedding

00:32:44

Speaker 2: didn't need any kind of a selection because it was a buffet and there was both a fish dish that was really phenomenal. There was a pork dish that was fantastic. And then there was also a number of veg vegetable based dishes that so it wasn't gonna matter any, any, anybody could fit into these ranges for the most part.

00:33:07

Speaker 2: And so also caterers are, are really aware of the variety of dietary restrictions and needs that most guests have and are really good at guiding people. So my guess is that if, if a reply card doesn't ask you about what meal you would prefer that you're probably going to be covered.

00:33:25

Speaker 2: It is okay for you for you to ask. It's okay to say, especially if if it's your only option or if it's something like a gluten allergy or something like that,

00:33:34

Speaker 2: you could follow up with either the host or a member of the couple to, to just

00:33:39

Speaker 2: sort of have that host guest dance about dietary restrictions and make sure that you'll be covered and it is okay. But if I was going to write a note on one of them, um like let's say maybe there were only meat options like you know chicken or fish or something like that or a steak or fish

00:33:57

Speaker 2: then I might say if it's possible to get a vegetarian meal, I would really love that or I would so appreciate that. If not,

00:34:04

Speaker 2: you know then check the one that you want. But I think that kind of puts it in that place of, I'm not demanding it. I'm

00:34:10

Speaker 2: asking and enquiring if this is a possibility and if it is, I would love to engage it

00:34:15

Speaker 1: picky meat eater. You don't sound overly picky to me at all. You sound like someone who knows what they like and I hope that you're getting lots of it in the future

00:34:24

Speaker 1: prepared meats inspected and passed by the United States Department of Agriculture are clean safe, wholesome and truthfully labeled, how can you be sure

00:34:41

Speaker 2: our next question is titled befuddled by braces. Hi lizzie and Daniel. My sister works for a large company and has been working from home since March of 2020 there was a potential to return to the office, this january. But because of omicron, they are staying home for a while longer

00:34:58

Speaker 2: On a recent Zoom meeting one of the VPs, a woman in her 40s had gotten braces, put on her teeth, not Invisalign braces.

00:35:07

Speaker 2: She made no mention of the braces and nobody else on the zoom call said anything either. Should my sister say something. Although I know she would never shouldn't her boss say something,

00:35:19

Speaker 2: hoping for some advice. Thanks your fan. Penelope. I love your name. Penelope.

00:35:24

Speaker 1: Oh Penelope. I so appreciate the question because it allows me to give some of my favorite etiquette advice which is, there are times in life when it's

00:35:33

Speaker 1: best to say nothing at all, when it's best to respect someone else's privacy and really allow for someone else to decide whether or not that's something that they want to bring up. I

00:35:46

Speaker 1: I can't think of a good reason why someone having braces or not having braces would impact the quality of the work they could do whether or not they could participate on a zoom call

00:35:56

Speaker 1: and maybe my imagination is showing its limitations that they're probably professions where braces might interfere with the work that you do.

00:36:03

Speaker 2: But for

00:36:04

Speaker 1: the most part, I I think this is

00:36:07

Speaker 1: firmly in that category of someone's personal medical and just private decision making and unless they've brought it up as a topic in a professional circumstance like a meeting, I would respect their privacy and their not having done so and I wouldn't make mention of it.

00:36:24

Speaker 2: I agree. 100%. I think this is exactly the type of thing. It's pretty obvious that she got braces so if she's not saying anything about it, there's no need for anyone else to be bringing it up either

00:36:36

Speaker 1: as far as the supervisor versus the colleague or the co worker. I again don't think that there's a major distinction between those roles in this situation in terms of how I would approach that kind of a personal topic in a professional situation.

00:36:50

Speaker 1: I think the reason I started this question with the sort of positive thought of, I really like giving this advice is that I think that it's really important for people to have a sense of privacy in their lives, to have a sense that there are things that they

00:37:03

Speaker 1: are allowed to keep to themselves and that fall into an area where other people will respect decisions and choices and things that

00:37:11

Speaker 1: that happened in that space as

00:37:14

Speaker 1: private matters, Things that aren't discussed in public places or aren't treated as other people's business. And

00:37:20

Speaker 1: I think that protecting that sense of privacy, that sense of personal privacy. And one of the ways we protected is honoring it in other people is one of the things that we can all do for each other in a world that in many ways is getting smaller and smaller and where we're all connected in more and more ways. So affording each other that space is is just a really

00:37:39

Speaker 1: important courtesy to keep to keep

00:37:42

Speaker 1: pushing forward.

00:37:43

Speaker 2: Penelope. Thank you so much for your question and while we know your sister would never never bring it up, we really appreciate the chance to address this so that other people can hear the advice that it's best to let this one just be

00:37:58

Speaker 1: thank you for your questions. Please send us updates or feedback on our answers to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463.

00:38:13

Speaker 1: You can also reach us on social media on twitter. We are at Emily Post on instagram. We are at Emily Post Institute

00:38:20

Speaker 1: and on facebook were awesome etiquette. Just remember use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your post so that we know you want your question on the show.

00:38:34

Speaker 2: If you're enjoying awesome etiquette, please consider becoming a sustaining member of the podcast by visiting us at patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette. You'll get an ads free version of the show and access to bonus questions and content plus some live calls throughout the year

00:38:52

Speaker 2: and we know you'll feel great knowing that you're helping to keep awesome etiquette on the air

00:38:57

Speaker 2: to those of you who are already sustaining members. Thank you so much for your support.

00:39:02

Speaker 2: It's

00:39:02

Speaker 1: time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer and the topics we cover today. We have feedback from Ray

00:39:11

Speaker 2: Hello

00:39:11

Speaker 1: to all at the Emily Post Institute. Thank you to everyone who helps to make this world filled with more consideration, respect and honesty.

00:39:19

Speaker 1: I had to chuckle when lizzie was talking about her efforts to show a proper expression when she's confused by a gift.

00:39:26

Speaker 1: Several years ago, my husband's niece failed miserably at this. We had given her what appeared to be a box of nice sugar free chocolates with no metabolic issues. She had no need for sugar free candy as she thanks us. Her confusion was written all over her face. We encouraged her to open them up immediately.

00:39:45

Speaker 1: What she didn't know was that I had already eaten all of the Sugar free candy and replaced it with cash I had wanted or folded various denominations of bills into the candy spaces and then shrink wrapped the box.

00:39:57

Speaker 1: Once she had the box open, her smile was genuine Again, thank you to all who make the awesome etiquette podcast and Emily Post Institute website happen. I hope everyone has a holiday season filled with joy, love and laughter warmly. Right

00:40:11

Speaker 2: Ray, thank you so much. That is, that's such a great story and such a great, awesome prank to pull on some awesome.

00:40:18

Speaker 1: She tried she faked it for a minute. It was, she was disappointed, but she, she made an effort and I'm glad that we broke through with some genuine joy at some point, Ray,

00:40:30

Speaker 2: thank you so much for that feedback

00:40:33

Speaker 2: and thank you for sending us your thoughts and updates. Please keep them coming.

00:40:37

Speaker 1: You can send us your feedback

00:40:38

Speaker 2: Or update two awesome

00:40:39

Speaker 1: etiquette Emily

00:40:40

Speaker 2: post dot com or leave a voicemail or text message at 802858 kind. That's

00:40:45

Speaker 1: 802

00:40:46

Speaker 2: 8585

00:40:47

Speaker 1: 463.

00:40:55

Speaker 2: It's time for our post group segment where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette and today we're gonna talk about retirement parties because we happen to be recording this on the day that tom brady announced his retirement and we thought that

00:41:09

Speaker 1: such like crying

00:41:13

Speaker 2: tears,

00:41:15

Speaker 2: we thought that such a legend, the greatest of all time. He is, he is he, is that for his retirement he should have some etiquette about retirement parties. We certainly hope that he is going to throw a massive one or that Giselle is going to throw a massive one for him. But of course with covid safety protocol in place

00:41:38

Speaker 2: And so we thought it would be really great to read the retirement party section of our 20th edition of Emily Post's

00:41:45

Speaker 1: etiquette post

00:41:46

Speaker 2: dan, can I say something

00:41:47

Speaker 1: here? I think

00:41:48

Speaker 2: yes please do. Please do. I was going to say this is so gleeful. Which one of us is going to talk more.

00:41:54

Speaker 1: I just wanted to thank you, I'm sure that our audiences guessing this was my post script topic and it was not. You came to the table with this today and

00:42:04

Speaker 1: you said I want to read the retirement section from our, our new 20th edition of Emily Post etiquette and I thought to myself, that's great, that's a sort of underappreciated section. I really like it. That's a nice thing to do for people. Why, why would you want to talk about that? And you looked at me and I was,

00:42:22

Speaker 1: it's still we well, you didn't look at because we were talking on the phone, but you gave me that look, that lizzie post gives me where you sort of raised the eyebrow and

00:42:31

Speaker 2: which by the way, I cannot actually do love the fact that I get credited with that

00:42:38

Speaker 1: and I got to look through the phone and you know me so well, that's all it takes and it is a painful and difficult time for me and it's a time of transition. So I could use a little etiquette in my life right now, thank you. I really, I appreciate this.

00:42:52

Speaker 2: It's not just you. I cried a little bit. I was definitely like, oh no more brady in football, what do you mean?

00:42:59

Speaker 2: Oh, break my heart. So here it is audience, our retirement party section dan feel free to color commentary this okay, we're in the world of sports, jump in at any point.

00:43:10

Speaker 2: Talk about things. Imagine how tom's version of this might go interrupt, I encourage it. It begins retirement parties are wonderful. Even if a bit bittersweet

00:43:25

Speaker 2: to reach a point in life where you are walking away from the daily world of your career is a huge accomplishment that deserves

00:43:34

Speaker 2: honored recognition.

00:43:36

Speaker 2: Retirement parties can be hosted by an employer or by a spouse loved one close colleague or friend of the retiree.

00:43:44

Speaker 2: They can be held at home or at a restaurant or event venue. It all depends on the hosts and the honorees preferences. So dan, I'm going to interrupt myself and say that what, what do you think, Who do you think most likely to throw a tom brady retirement party? Giselle, his parents or the either the owner, like either owners of the teams, he played for majorly

00:44:10

Speaker 2: or coaches. The coaches could do it and players could do it. I mean, what do you think?

00:44:14

Speaker 1: It's a question. It's an etiquette question and it's already been a social media etiquette question.

00:44:19

Speaker 2: You're kidding me. Oh my goodness!

00:44:21

Speaker 1: Here here's how it came up because my answers are absolutely Giselle, probably that would be tom brady's wife in cooperation coordination with his parents would be my guess

00:44:32

Speaker 1: Um incredibly close family is very close with his parents. The secondary thought was in terms of professionally, he's a unique situation where he's worked for his current team for about two years, his previous team for about 20 years and in his retirement, he referenced exclusively his current team

00:44:48

Speaker 1: In his retirement announcement and a lot of people from the Patriot Organization, Patriot fan base who spent 20 years with him, felt a little slighted

00:44:56

Speaker 1: and I was not one of those people. And the reason I'm not is that it makes perfect sense to me that you would thank the people that you're currently working with that. There is certainly an appropriate time for honoring those longer relationships that developed over the entirety of a career.

00:45:12

Speaker 1: Those would not be my most immediate concern. I would want to be talking firstly to the people who I was immediately working with at the time. I thought that what he did was

00:45:21

Speaker 2: firing from the this team, You're not retiring from the patriots have already done that.

00:45:25

Speaker 1: Exactly. And

00:45:27

Speaker 2: anyway, so I think

00:45:28

Speaker 1: absolutely appropriate. He'll probably come back, sign a short contract, retire as a patriot. But there's time for that in the immediacy of the moment. We're going to honor the people that were working with currently. Anyway,

00:45:40

Speaker 2: dan is expressing my own personal dream. I was like, you think he'll pull a farm and come out of retirement not

00:45:47

Speaker 1: to actually play just to drop some banners.

00:45:53

Speaker 2: Okay, let's look at timing guests and invitations. This party is held once the honoree has retired. So it happens after the actual retirement and is often an evening event lasting 2-4 hours

00:46:06

Speaker 2: now. All this is not to say that if the honorary prefers something more casual, you couldn't do an afternoon backyard barbecue, that would be a wonderful celebration,

00:46:16

Speaker 2: guests are associates from work, immediate family and close friends. If it's a very large company as the Tampa bay buccaneers would be, you might stick to one department. I don't know

00:46:29

Speaker 2: if it's a small

00:46:30

Speaker 1: team.

00:46:31

Speaker 2: I think I think they could afford the party for the whole place.

00:46:34

Speaker 2: If it's a small team, invite everyone including a boss. You might have to be a sleuth or you can ask your honoree for suggestions, especially when it comes to family and friends whom they'd like to have attend or colleagues from work that a family member who is hosting may not know. So that's one place where that honoree

00:46:54

Speaker 2: can really help make that guest list. Perfect. Because the hosts might not know everybody who should be invited

00:47:01

Speaker 2: Invitations typically go out 4-6 weeks in advance. These are classic party invitations

00:47:08

Speaker 2: and then there's a cross reference to examples of said invitations.

00:47:11

Speaker 2: Remember to have the formality of the invitation match the formality of the event. A backyard barbecue might have a fill in party invitation while a formal dinner at someone's house or a restaurant might have one that is printed and mailed.

00:47:26

Speaker 2: I'm hoping that tom brady does a printed and mailed invitation for this particular party just because I think it would be so class. But I could imagine just because so many people do digital invitations these days. I could see that happening to its I'm guessing big guest list here

00:47:42

Speaker 2: refreshments. Most retirement parties consist of either order curves and a cake or a meal and a cake cake is just so celebratory. The party can be big or small casual or formal. There are also many quote unquote office retirement parties that are held directly at work.

00:48:01

Speaker 2: Please visit our website for specific information on those

00:48:04

Speaker 2: dinner is almost always served for larger parties. A buffet for smaller parties, either a plated meal or heavy hors d'oeuvres. If it's casual you're more likely to have a buffet with casual fare, serve something the honoree loves. It's their night

00:48:22

Speaker 2: toasts, speeches and even the presentation of a gift to the honoree might be part of the evening

00:48:29

Speaker 2: gifts. You don't see many guests bringing gifts to retirement parties. A loved one or the company, a boss or the team might get the honorary something but other guests don't. They do however, bring cards of congratulations and sometimes flowers

00:48:45

Speaker 2: be prepared as a host to help collect these and send them home with the honoree.

00:48:50

Speaker 2: You might open and read the cards at a casual or intimate retirement party but choose not to if it's a larger group

00:48:58

Speaker 2: and that concludes our retirement party section

00:49:02

Speaker 2: and of course it's built in an entertaining chapter. So there's quite a lot of advice all around this that helps helps buffer it up and so that we aren't just repeating ourselves with every single section. But I just love the idea of imagining what that retirement party might be, whether they choose to go the small

00:49:19

Speaker 2: intimate route or whether it's the big celebration where you're inviting, like everybody who works in the stadium, you

00:49:25

Speaker 1: know

00:49:27

Speaker 1: well. And as soon as you started saying and everybody loves cake, I was thinking to myself, boy, tom brady's diet is famously restrictive. I don't know if he does like cake and then I thought to myself, of course he's retired now he might be eating more cake. He

00:49:41

Speaker 2: might be eating more cake. You never know, you never know.

00:49:47

Speaker 2: Well it is certainly fun to take a minute both to dive into the 20th edition and to dream about such an amazing, greatest player of all time and it's so much fun to dream about what this party might actually be

00:50:00

Speaker 1: like.

00:50:05

Speaker 1: Yeah,

00:50:14

Speaker 1: okay,

00:50:23

Speaker 2: we like to

00:50:24

Speaker 1: end our show on a high note. So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing out in the world and that can come in so many forms Today we have a salute from chris

00:50:35

Speaker 2: hi

00:50:35

Speaker 1: lizzie and dan. I have an etiquette salute for my next door neighbor

00:50:39

Speaker 2: Dylan.

00:50:40

Speaker 1: This past december. I purchased and moved into a home in a neighborhood where I didn't know anyone.

00:50:45

Speaker 1: I met Dylan on the second or third day of moving in and we were both in our respective backyards at the time.

00:50:51

Speaker 1: We had a very nice introductory conversation and he mentioned that it being winter, the neighborhood would be pretty quiet, but come the summer months it would be a lot more socially active.

00:51:01

Speaker 1: It wasn't until a couple of weeks later on the afternoon of New Year's Eve that we interacted again,

00:51:06

Speaker 1: Dylan and I again found ourselves in our backyards and we chatted about our christmases and our New Year's Eve plans.

00:51:13

Speaker 1: I had originally had plans to visit some friends who lived a couple of hours away for the weekend. However, they had to cancel their event last minute due to a covid exposure and potential risk to their guests, which I completely understood and appreciated

00:51:26

Speaker 1: Dylan upon hearing that I was planning to stay in and have a quiet New Year's Eve, asked if I would be interested in joining him and his wife at a neighborhood event at another neighbor's house and that if so he'd reach out to the hosts and asked if it was okay that I joined.

00:51:41

Speaker 1: He let me know a short time later that I was welcome to join and that I could meet up with him and his wife ahead of time and walk over with them so that I wouldn't have to show up alone

00:51:50

Speaker 1: upon arriving at the event, Dylan introduced me to the hosts and other neighbors and once the night was over let me know they were leaving in case I wanted to head out with them.

00:52:00

Speaker 1: I want to thank Dylan for not only inviting me to the event and providing me with an opportunity to meet many of my new neighbors,

00:52:07

Speaker 1: but also for going through all of the proper steps for inviting someone to another hosts event.

00:52:12

Speaker 1: I also want to thank a recent light snowfall. I was shoveling my driveway and one of the neighbors I met at the event stopped as he was driving by and offered to bring over a snowblower.

00:52:23

Speaker 1: I let him know that while I greatly appreciated the offer, I did have a snowblower already and was shoveling by choice. I'm extremely grateful to have not only a kind and thoughtful next door neighbor but to live in a neighborhood full of generous kind and welcoming people chris

00:52:39

Speaker 2: chris that is so wonderfully heartening. I love hearing this, this is exactly the way you would hope for neighbor relations to develop and start and go. And

00:52:49

Speaker 2: and also I love getting a second to just say that

00:52:53

Speaker 2: there is like a rule in etiquette that you don't ask to invite someone to something, you know that just the people who the host is invited or the people who are that it's like rude to do this. And at the same time, this is such a beautiful example of when it's not of the host guest dance of a way that you can ask questions of your host

00:53:13

Speaker 2: and engage in something that might actually be more welcoming and more inclusive and not have that be rude at all. And I just, I love,

00:53:23

Speaker 2: I love moments that are sort of the reality. That's a little bit of a contrast to a classic etiquette point. You know,

00:53:29

Speaker 1: you gotta know the rules to know how to break them and, and and this is so um

00:53:34

Speaker 1: it's so spot on, there's no promise made, it's not, Oh I'm going to this event, will you come with me? It's oh no, there's this event happening. I need to check with the host, check with the host, get back. I mean like you say, it's it's it's the little steps, it's perfect, it's an etiquette. How to chris thank you so much for sharing this salute. You put a smile on both of our faces today.

00:53:56

Speaker 1: Yeah.

00:53:57

Speaker 1: All right,

00:54:00

Speaker 2: and thank you our audience for listening

00:54:02

Speaker 1: and thank you to everyone who sent us something and everyone who supports us on Patreon,

00:54:07

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00:54:15

Speaker 1: you can send your next question feedback or salute by email to awesome etiquette Emily post dot com. You can leave us a message or text at 802858 kind that's 8028585463 on twitter. We are at Emily post on instagram, we're at Emily Post institute and on facebook were awesome etiquette and the Emily Post Institute.

00:54:37

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00:54:44

Speaker 1: etiquette.

00:54:45

Speaker 1: You can

00:54:45

Speaker 2: also subscribe to the ads

00:54:46

Speaker 1: version of our show

00:54:47

Speaker 2: on your favorite podcast app and please consider leaving us a review wherever you listen. It really helps

00:54:54

Speaker 1: our show ranking, which helps more

00:54:55

Speaker 2: people find awesome

00:54:57

Speaker 1: etiquette. Our show is edited by Kris Albertine and assistant produced by Bridget Dowd. Thanks. Thanks Brigitte.

00:55:08

Speaker 1: Mhm.

00:55:09

Speaker 1: Mhm.

00:55:11

Speaker 1: All right,

00:55:15

Speaker 1: mm hmm

00:55:17

Speaker 1: mm hmm

00:55:19

Speaker 1: mm hmm

00:55:21

Speaker 1: mm hmm

00:55:23

Speaker 1: mm hmm.