Episode 376 - Ready, Set
In this episode of Awesome Etiquette
Welcome to Awesome Etiquette, where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty. On today’s show we take your questions on talking to your friend about their flirty date, family monograms, hosting at someone else’s house, and etiquette for when a neighbor moves away. For Awesome Etiquette sustaining members our question is about addressing the loss after a miscarriage. Plus your most excellent feedback, etiquette salute and a postscript on holiday table setting.
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Speaker 1: maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social goodness. See it's old fashioned,
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Speaker 2: watch how busy post and they're supposed to act as host and hostess? They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person, real friendliness.
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Speaker 2: Mhm
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Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to awesome etiquette
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Speaker 2: where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty. On
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Speaker 1: today's show we take your questions on talking to your friend about their flirty boyfriend family monograms hosting at someone else's house and etiquette for when a neighbor moves away.
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Speaker 2: For awesome etiquette sustaining members are question is about addressing loss and miscarriage
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Speaker 1: plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a postscript on thanksgiving day table setting.
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Speaker 2: All that coming up,
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Speaker 1: awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute. I'm lizzie Post
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Speaker 2: and I'm dan post Senning
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Speaker 1: hey, because
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Speaker 2: lizzie Post,
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Speaker 1: I'm going to spill some beans. This co host of mine, this cousin, this family elder
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Speaker 1: and his daughter played a prank on me last week. You're going to tell this story. I'm telling him
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Speaker 1: we dan and I have been still really hard at work on the book. In fact it's extended far beyond we thought it would. I think one might question our, our levels of mental fitness at this point,
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Speaker 2: our abilities to let go,
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Speaker 1: our abilities to function at
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Speaker 2: all.
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Speaker 1: But it was, it was really fun to get pranked. What happened was I was sitting at home on a I think it was it a monday, it was like regular day getting, getting some edits in doing my part while we weren't on the phone together, editing things together.
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Speaker 1: And all of a sudden like I heard, I think I heard a knock at the door and I was like I'm coming
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Speaker 1: and I go to the door
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Speaker 1: and there's no one there
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Speaker 1: and like I look to see if maybe it was like you know the Fedex person and they have like, you know, because they're always running back and forth, like gone fast and there's no package and occasionally a friend will like go around to see if my my backyard doors open
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Speaker 1: um because sometimes it's just a big sliding glass door so I kind of peered around the backyard, there was no one there
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Speaker 1: and I was like this is really weird and then I started thinking of friends who might be messing with me,
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Speaker 1: did not think of family members who might be messing with me. I finally went far enough around the corner of the garage to see little Anisha sending giggling like crazy with her father who was also giggling like crazy.
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Speaker 1: Um It was, it was really funny. It was such a great surprise and because you made that surprise that dropped by visit which was literally the section of the book we were working on when you dropped by
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Speaker 1: so much fun because you also, there was this really cool thing happening where Putin was going to be able to come get an issue and you and I got to work together in the same room
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Speaker 1: for like a whole eight hours and it was unbelievable.
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Speaker 2: Oh, okay. It's so much fun for me to hear about that experience from your perspective, just because obviously have my own view on it, but I don't think I've heard from you exactly what you were up to as we were ringing your doorbell and running away.
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Speaker 1: It was really, really funny.
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Speaker 2: You guys the bushes
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Speaker 1: and you also brought treats. I mean you brought me water melon and green juice and uh and, and uh what was a sticky bun? I got some kind of like cinnamon sticky bun thing and it was just so, it was awesome. It was a great drop by visit
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Speaker 2: niche. So got it,
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Speaker 1: she did,
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Speaker 1: she did for
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Speaker 2: everyone's benefit Anita and I had had a dentist appointment that I had thought was at our usual spot. And it turned out it was at a different office. And when I had looked up where that office was discovered earlier that morning on monday morning that I was going to be about a block and a half from lizzie's house
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Speaker 2: and it's just
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Speaker 1: really random guys like this doesn't normally dance in my worlds don't cross that closely in
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Speaker 2: Vermont as we were wrapping up our appointment. I was talking to an issue and I was telling her that we were really close to lizzie's house and that would be fun to go visit you
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Speaker 2: and then I got this idea, I was like oh we could play a prank on her
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Speaker 2: and his eyes just lit up because she's heard prank before and when I explained to her sort of the concept, she dropped it instantly, she was so ready and it would have worked even better if I was able to count on her to actually successfully ring that doorbell, but I wasn't
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Speaker 1: sure about this.
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Speaker 2: So we had actually done it a couple more times. We we we we we ran our prank about four times, I think we got you the last two when I told him he should start really rapping on the door.
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Speaker 2: Um
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Speaker 2: but you know, she was delighted and had so much fun and also enjoyed the sticky bun.
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Speaker 1: Uh it was, it was a blast. It was, it was a good day. It made for in the middle of a lot of what felt like mundane days where not that I don't love because but my life basically revolved around our day long phone call of editing into the evening after dinner and then just pretty much
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Speaker 1: go into bed
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Speaker 1: waking up and calling you within like half an hour of waking up. It was such a great shake up to the day. It was the perfect prank to play because no one was gonna get hurt or be upset or anything like that. Um It was it was, it was really, really fun. I really appreciated it and I especially appreciated the timing of it.
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Speaker 2: Drop
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Speaker 1: life is ironic.
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Speaker 2: A little good humor can go a long way in any relationship.
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Speaker 2: Well, as you said that they did turn into a great editing day also and it was fun to sit there and get to do that with you. And I even tolerated or
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Speaker 2: accepted I guess. I just wouldn't say tolerated when you
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Speaker 2: offered to record the session to take some video of it for posterity.
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Speaker 1: So
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Speaker 2: lizzie set up a camera and recorded us in the same room together. Just hashing out what will be the 20th edition of Emily Post etiquette for the 100 year anniversary. And
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Speaker 2: I'm hoping that someday we will look back on that recording and laugh about the day and the editing process and where this book, hopefully that will be so proud of came from.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the feeling was that we always wish that we had more people want to know what was Emily thinking when she changed from from this edition to this edition. This piece of advice and we don't really have a lot of that history because sometimes it was in the hands of one person. Sometimes it was in the hands of a group
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Speaker 1: and it wasn't something you kind of took too many notes on or saved the files and the paper versions of it was it was considered garbage. Whereas the
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Speaker 1: the for you know the final version was the version you save. So my hope is that if if the next generation picks it up that it kind of helps fills in some of those questions that they might end up having about this particularly special
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Speaker 2: edition. We have gotten more interested in process as the years have gone by
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Speaker 1: because we get so many requests for it that we can't fulfill that were like we should probably start doing this.
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Speaker 1: Well one other thing we should probably start doing on this podcast is answering some questions you think it's time to get to it?
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Speaker 2: Let's do it,
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Speaker 2: awesome etiquette is here to answer your questions. You can email them to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind That's 8028585463.
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Speaker 2: You can also reach us on social media on twitter. We are at Emily Post inst on instagram, you're at Emily Post institute and on facebook were awesome etiquette. Just remember use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your post so that we know you want your question on the show.
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Speaker 2: Mhm
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Speaker 2: Yeah
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Speaker 1: mm
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Speaker 1: Our first question is a toughie in its title. Disrespectful date.
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Speaker 1: Dear lizzie and dan, I have a close friendship that has lasted 11 years we see each other at least once a month and our friendship is similar to that of sisters.
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Speaker 1: My friend brought her current boyfriend that she has been dating for a year as a plus one to my wedding
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Speaker 1: during the wedding. Her boyfriend openly flirted with me right in her presence. I was appalled and did not respond
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Speaker 1: as the guests were heading home. Several of the women, including my sister,
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Speaker 1: pulled me aside and vented that the same man flirted with them sometimes aggressively and that he inappropriately touched their shoulders or offered massages,
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Speaker 1: lizzie and dan. I feel compelled to speak with my friend about this. I would like to state that I do not wish to be in his presence and to only meet with her in the future.
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Speaker 1: Will this approach cause our long friendship to dissolve. Many thanks for your advice sincerely. R l
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Speaker 1: Oh,
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Speaker 1: that's a tough one.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sorry to hear about this. RL it's a really unfortunate
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Speaker 2: thing to be dealing with following your wedding and it's a really unfortunate thing to be dealing with as a potential disruption or problem in an 11 year friendship that you really value.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, one of my thoughts here is
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Speaker 2: to take a very etiquette e approach to what is a really difficult problem and the etiquette rule that comes to my mind first, and
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Speaker 2: I hope that everyone out there will excuse the sort of simple connection to manners at the table. But it's it's what we oftentimes have called on the show. The broccoli on the tooth rule
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Speaker 2: and
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Speaker 2: the idea behind the broccoli on the tooth rule is would you want someone to talk to you about something that was difficult or potentially awkward or embarrassing. Um,
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Speaker 2: and if you have a little bit of broccoli on your tooth, most people would tell you that they would want you to talk to them about it. And
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Speaker 2: if I was your friend, I would want to know about this situation and I would want to know what happened and I would want to know how you were feeling about it. It's serious enough and it clearly had enough of an impact on you and on other people at the wedding
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Speaker 2: that,
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Speaker 2: that I don't think it's just a good idea. I think it's important to talk to your friend about it
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Speaker 2: if you're comfortable doing it, if that's something that you want to do. I think it's a really good idea in service of the relationship,
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Speaker 2: how you have that difficult conversation, I think is really important. And I do think there is some really good etiquette around ways that you can approach that conversation to give yourself the best chance for your friend to hear what you have to say and to respond to you in a way that's really going to work to
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Speaker 2: help both of you continue to have this friendship that's lasted for 11 years
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Speaker 1: because I'm right there with you. I think this is a serious enough situation and a long term and important enough friendship in your life, that if you want to broach this subject, you should, you should feel um
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Speaker 1: I don't always know if I'd say confident, but right in doing so that this that that it would be within the grounds that that you would want to have a dress, that I don't think friends who are this good of friends would want to let something like this go between each other. Um and I think that if you did, if you just didn't broach the subject,
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Speaker 1: it leaves you in the position of
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Speaker 1: not really explaining why you're always saying no to her invitations, you know, to come over for dinner with her and her boyfriend or something like that,
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Speaker 1: and I think it's big enough and it's going to impact how you interact with her enough that I think that the conversation is worth it.
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Speaker 2: I couldn't agree more. One of the potential problems raising it is that it could come across as commenting on someone else's relationship and not everyone is welcoming to those sorts of that sort of input are those sorts of comments
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Speaker 2: at the same time. I think there are things that you can do that put the conversation in the lane that allows your friend to hear it and not hear it as a criticism, but as you sharing information that's really important to you.
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Speaker 2: So I think you start off by treating the conversation itself with the seriousness that it deserves, that you ask for a time and place to have the conversation that you acknowledge that there's something
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Speaker 2: potentially awkward or difficult that you want to talk to your friends about and that you want to find the right time to do it.
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Speaker 2: As we often say on this show, it make your good intentions explicit say to your friend, that you value the friendship that you care about her, that if the shoe were on the other foot, you would hope that she would feel comfortable talking to you about it.
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Speaker 2: That
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Speaker 2: you don't judge her. That this isn't a comment on her her choices and relationships, but it's about the way the person that she brought behaved
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Speaker 2: and
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Speaker 1: how it impacted
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Speaker 2: you, how it impacted you and other people at the wedding, that you weren't the only one and that's an important detail to include also that it's not just from your perspective that this was happening but from several people's perspectives, because that does add weight to the interpretation of what was happening at the wedding.
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Speaker 2: I also think it's really important to be ready to listen, to be ready to give your friend space to hear what you have to say and maybe have a response in the moment or maybe too need some time to figure out
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Speaker 2: how she feels and thinks about what might be new information or what might not be new information. This might be something that she's very aware of and she says, oh, you know, I watched all that happen and it was so embarrassing and awkward for me and I didn't know how to talk about it with, you
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Speaker 1: didn't know what to do.
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Speaker 2: It's also entirely possible that
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Speaker 2: that it comes as a blind side, that it's that it's a side of this other person that she didn't see herself and she's going to need some time to really digest that.
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Speaker 1: And it's happening around a wedding, which can also cause a lot of feelings
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Speaker 1: about relationships and how they are perceived and where people are at in them and things like that, which can, which can just also impact
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Speaker 1: how someone's hearing something at a particular
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Speaker 2: time. I think you can also acknowledge that it's her choice about how she wants to approach this relationship and move forward
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Speaker 2: and that for you, there are a couple of issues that are at play. One is the way that you felt with him
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Speaker 2: and that you're not comfortable being around him in the future would prefer not to be. And the
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Speaker 2: the other issue being about just the two of you and wanting to maintain integrity in your relationship and to talk with her about what you experience and how it made you feel so that so that you two are both
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Speaker 2: operating with enough information to really enough clarity to to move forward
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Speaker 2: so that you both understand
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Speaker 2: how each other were perceiving that and can move forward
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Speaker 1: dan. I think you got out the most important points about how to handle a very difficult situation. The one that I kind of want to close us on
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Speaker 1: is to remember that
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Speaker 1: time can make a big difference with this one.
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Speaker 1: It might take your friend as dan had mentioned, time to absorb what she's hearing
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Speaker 1: and to even understand or appreciate your side of it and your perspective that led you to make the decision to talk about it and request the boundary that you're going to request with her.
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Speaker 1: And that time I think can be really important. It's hard because I think you, you want to get answers, move forward to the situation where she understands what's going on and is willing to get together with you just one on one, but as we know, that might not be the case,
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Speaker 1: it might be even that she understands accepts it and then when it's put into practice it starts
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Speaker 1: being frustrating or difficult on her end trying to navigate keeping the two of you apart while she tries to navigate the social and relationship um aspect of her life. So I think give it time,
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Speaker 1: however, it starts to play out if it doesn't go well, you might be able to address it again later or reach out letting her know how much you do miss her friendship if if it's kind of off for a bit um or if you're jumping right into trying to work on that boundary. Um giving her time to absorb it and work it into life and and and you as well, I think is a good idea with this. This is a really, really, really tough
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Speaker 2: one, lizzie. I was also thinking about the follow up and
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Speaker 2: sure how you then move forward in the friendship
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Speaker 2: if it's possible. And
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Speaker 2: I think that you can participate in
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Speaker 2: increasing the chances that it is possible. And I think that you can
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Speaker 2: follow up on
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Speaker 2: the conversation that we're talking about with an invitation to your friend to do something and go for coffee or a walk or Exactly, and maybe it's not that day. Maybe it's with an awareness of that passage of time working to smooth a lot of intense feelings over. But
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Speaker 2: a clear invitation to her to do something with just her
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Speaker 2: might be a way to create a space for that friendship so that it doesn't have to dissolve whether or not you're able to reach some accord about this new relationship.
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Speaker 1: RL we are so sorry that you've had this experience and we hope that if you do address the issue that our answer helps.
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Speaker 1: Oh, and what's he doing, saturday night? Well, I guess I'm busy. Oh yeah. And they had to give him the brush off for me,
00:18:30
Speaker 1: full of all the nerves. Well, is there
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Speaker 2: another way
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Speaker 2: Mhm.
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Speaker 2: Our next question is about a messy monogram. Dear dan and lizzie. Thank you for your wonderful podcast. I look forward to listening to it each week.
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Speaker 2: My question is regarding what's the proper monogram?
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Speaker 2: My husband is a junior example. Alpha bravo charlie. Jr. He insists that only his father's monogram is abc.
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Speaker 2: He thinks using that monogram for himself is incorrect since his father's name is alpha bravo charlie and his is alpha bravo charlie. Junior
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Speaker 2: is my husband correct
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Speaker 2: if so what is the correct form to use when having something personalized with a monogram for him? Such as stationery.
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Speaker 2: I've had the opinion that suffixes are not included in monograms and that his would be the same as his father's monogram
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Speaker 2: as gift giving season is rapidly approaching. I would love to personalize a gift for him with the proper monogram. Once I have confirmation from you on how exactly his should be represented.
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Speaker 2: Thank you holly.
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Speaker 1: Because you know, we get into trouble when we saw it was going to say
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Speaker 2: like but unusual questions
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Speaker 1: right? Like usually we try really hard to to like talk about it from each of the partners perspectives. And basically you can usually do anything you want if someone's really that strong about it, not quite the case here traditionally and I would say that tradition is continuing to be upheld.
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Speaker 1: You do not use junior or senior or the third in your monogram.
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Speaker 1: Typically monograms are set up for three letters. There are times where you use one. There are times where you use two and there are times when people who have four letters are using four.
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Speaker 1: But most often when you're doing things like holly is thinking of doing getting gifts for holiday season, that sort of thing or birthday or something like that or an anniversary.
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Speaker 1: You're filling out forms on a website that only have those constructions. They don't even have room to put like a junior or a third or something like that.
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Speaker 1: That said to, I have a hard time in my mind picturing what it would look like and and then it would have the same kind of elegance and dare I say the word because thrill that monograms in the in the 123 or four structure tend to have. I'm picturing some of the really beautiful ones where the
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Speaker 1: last initial
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Speaker 1: is like big and frilly and the surname initial and the two kind of middle and for the first name in the middle name are like smaller and elegantly kind of folded in almost on either side of that. That big, frilly beautiful initial.
00:21:24
Speaker 1: No, I don't have monogrammed towels or sheets or bathrobes that look like this in my house. But you know, a girl can dream. But I think that this is one where I would suggest just using the standard monogram
00:21:36
Speaker 1: because my idea for this had been that rather than maybe do the abc since holly's husband doesn't seem to equate that with him and equates it with his father instead.
00:21:48
Speaker 1: I think that you could do maybe just like if your last name was the charlie or you could do just the first initial. I know in my family we got all different ranges from our full three letter initials to just our first initial to something with just a P on it for post.
00:22:05
Speaker 1: Um Might be a different way to go. Still satisfy your desire to give a monogrammed gift but not give a monogram that, you know, he's kind of not digging to begin with.
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Speaker 2: That's the place where I hitched in this question. Like you, I started off with the practical problem, which is that like you said, a lot of places that will Bonnie graham, you're feeding the information into a sewing machine that's got three letters that it produces or
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Speaker 2: it's a standard format and most of them, In fact,
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Speaker 2: I would imagine all of them are formatted
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Speaker 2: not to include juniors and seniors. You might find one or you might find someone who's creatively able to originally generate you something. But
00:22:46
Speaker 2: um I think there might be a practical difficulty to doing it.
00:22:50
Speaker 2: I was also thinking about the,
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Speaker 2: the gift giving relationship that you're wanting to get something that somebody is really going to like
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Speaker 2: and you're aware that they don't like the traditional way of doing it, is there or work around. And
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Speaker 2: I started to think like you were thinking that there are lots of different ways to arrange the three initials into a monogram that you can do it. I've seen them where you have equal weight to each letter and it goes in the alpha bravo charlie format.
00:23:18
Speaker 2: And then there's that example that you were talking about where the charlie gets big and moves to the middle. Yeah, so like alpha charlie, bravo
00:23:27
Speaker 2: and you might just figure out what the father does and then go the other way. So if the father has a monogram that they use, you choose the other construction. And there are even some, they're not as traditional but creative monograms that will have the big last name and then the others in a square with it maybe with the letters above and below. They're not traditional
00:23:50
Speaker 2: constructions, but people do have options for doing it. It might be a way to have a monogram that was distinct from his father's
00:23:58
Speaker 2: that he could use and feel good about and it would look really good and may be classy and contemporary and different. Yeah,
00:24:06
Speaker 1: because pull me back if you think I'm going too far with this next fall. But
00:24:11
Speaker 2: I preemptively pull you back.
00:24:13
Speaker 1: Well, you can, you can wrap my fingers if you need to or tell me, you know, to tell our audience don't listen to lizzie.
00:24:21
Speaker 1: But one of the interesting things about junior senior thirds is that when the most senior in the list passes away,
00:24:30
Speaker 1: technically you change the number that you were in existence. Like you're the scene, the most senior living is the most senior living. So a junior while having been a junior their entire life
00:24:43
Speaker 1: may end up losing that junior title eventually. And that's just it's just something to think about when it comes to it. And I know a lot of juniors, some juniors even get called junior and so it's like really they really associated with their name. But this is um it's one of the interesting things about the way that we use
00:25:03
Speaker 1: these suffixes and sort of as titles and suffixes.
00:25:06
Speaker 2: I think it's a good point and it's probably why traditionally it wasn't used because it wasn't a permanent part of your title.
00:25:14
Speaker 1: Not that holly, I think you should take that and use it as like a ha ha. Your junior doesn't even matter honey.
00:25:22
Speaker 2: That would not be good etiquette. That is true.
00:25:25
Speaker 1: It wouldn't be good etiquette. It wouldn't be good
00:25:27
Speaker 2: etiquette. No knuckle raps here lizzie post.
00:25:29
Speaker 1: Okay, thanks guys. I appreciate
00:25:31
Speaker 2: it. And holly, thank you so much for this question. It is fun to talk about monograms. They can be really beautiful and they can be very distinguished and we wish you the very best in looking for a gift that your husband will love.
00:26:01
Speaker 1: Our next question is titled hosting at their house. Hello lizzie and dan, thank you so much for all you do. I love your podcast. I am writing in to ask about hosting responsibilities when you are hosting at another person's house.
00:26:17
Speaker 1: My husband and I usually host thanksgiving at our house this year. We are thinking that my husband's parents house will be a better fit for our family gathering.
00:26:26
Speaker 1: They have more space and are more centrally located.
00:26:30
Speaker 1: I don't want to add more work for them because they already host christmas for extended family.
00:26:36
Speaker 1: They have graciously agreed to let us use their home, but now I am wondering how to host at someone else's house. Should I go over the day before and help clean? Do I stay after to make sure that things are clean before we leave
00:26:53
Speaker 1: at our house. The main cleanup usually ends up happening the day after.
00:26:57
Speaker 1: Should we still choose the music decorations et cetera. We live about 20 minutes away from my husband's parents, so it's not too hard to get over there. I love cooking and meal planning. So that part is already covered If you haven't covered this topic before, I would love a little guidance, thank you. Best hosting for the holidays.
00:27:17
Speaker 2: Oh, hosting for the holidays, thank you so much for this very timely question.
00:27:22
Speaker 1: Right, I'm like in this, it's like really getting in the spirit,
00:27:25
Speaker 2: it sounds so familiar to me. I think a lot of families have a version of this question or some something related to. I certainly know what was the discussion and my family, the sending side of the family this year, where there's often a big thanksgiving gathering and this year there's
00:27:41
Speaker 2: a bunch of sub gatherings and people are figuring out which clusters are going to be at which houses and
00:27:47
Speaker 2: um definitely some of the older generation decided this was the year they were going to bow out and say it's up to all of you to put this together and invite us and figure
00:27:57
Speaker 1: it out. Kids figure it
00:27:59
Speaker 2: out. So we've done a version of this in a very personal way around the sending family this year and
00:28:06
Speaker 2: um there are some courtesies that I think are really important to think about and I see them all being considered in this question, which really
00:28:13
Speaker 2: gives me a lot of confidence saying that I think you're going to handle this very well.
00:28:17
Speaker 2: The specifics that I think are worth really thinking about our clear communication that you get in touch early and ahead of time
00:28:27
Speaker 2: so that you are able to do as much as you can of the preparatory work ahead of time and that might mean that you need to get a couple questions answered about the serving where that's available or the space or how comfortable they'd be with you decorating the space. Just so you have some idea how to go about making your plans and what those parameters are.
00:28:47
Speaker 2: And that also really just starts to open up the whole dialogue
00:28:50
Speaker 2: part of that conversation can be you inviting them to bring up anything that they want with you about either your role as the host or your expectations of them.
00:29:00
Speaker 2: The second thought that I had was that you
00:29:03
Speaker 2: are really considerate to think about being part of the cleanup and the preparation and that that is
00:29:09
Speaker 1: both ends of it. That's what I like. Both ends.
00:29:11
Speaker 2: Absolutely. And and I was really
00:29:14
Speaker 2: tell me lizzie if you would imagine this similarly to me, I would think that the cleanup before might involve a a second trip to the house, that it might involve coming a day or two early to do more of that deeper preparatory work.
00:29:29
Speaker 2: If that was necessary in your preparatory talks, it was vacuuming and some other things that were going to happen, cleaning bathrooms that you wouldn't want to be doing day
00:29:38
Speaker 1: of. I was thinking because very similarly that probably as I'm, as I'm looking to touch base either uh right now, it would be this week as we record this podcast. But by the time you all here it'll be the start of thanksgiving week. And so
00:29:53
Speaker 1: either already have have reached out and touched base on this or I'm touching base, you know, on a monday for a thursday gathering to say, hey, I wanted to find out about cleaning and what I can do to help get the house ready. I'd be happy to come over on Wednesday and vacuum, you know, mop, do the counters like get get the space ready if that sounds helpful to you.
00:30:16
Speaker 1: It's it's one of those things, some people really want to clean their house their own way. Some people keep their house very clean and I'm like now I can run a quick vacuum over it and we'll be fine. So you might get a variety of answers and be prepared to go do the thing that you're offering to do if you get the answer this boy, that would be great.
00:30:34
Speaker 1: And it really is the big the big clean.
00:30:37
Speaker 1: But I love the idea of helping out for the cleaning up sort of a day ahead of time. That way, the day of the party or or the gathering the holiday. It's a lot easier to handle any any little kind of spruce ups or to just bring the decorations and be able to do the decorating ahead of time.
00:30:56
Speaker 1: But I love the idea of doing that. And I also love the idea of making sure that even though
00:31:02
Speaker 1: at your house, nobody helps clean up from the big meal. It's kind of left for for the hosts for the next day that you would offer to clean up and make sure that you aren't leaving your husband's parents with with that mess overnight. Even if you offer to come clean up the next day or something,
00:31:18
Speaker 2: thank you so much for staying overnight
00:31:20
Speaker 2: because in my mind I was thinking I was thinking the cleanup before
00:31:26
Speaker 2: it might be a separate trip, but for the cleanup afterwards, I would definitely be planning to extend my stay at the end, after other people left and to try to get as much of it done that day as possible for just that reason.
00:31:39
Speaker 1: And they might absolve you,
00:31:41
Speaker 1: they might say, no, go home, you've done so much already, don't worry. And that's wonderful. It's not necessary,
00:31:47
Speaker 1: but it's wonderful. Like, you know what I mean? It's that might happen, but I think you want to be prepared as the person who's kind of hosting and asking to host somewhere else to clean up at the start and the end. And just like you're taking it all on,
00:32:00
Speaker 2: in the spirit of that. I will ask my cousin on this podcast,
00:32:04
Speaker 2: would you be willing to do a second pass if someone tried to absolve you of that? Would you be willing to push just a little bit and say no, no, no, I want to be sure. We said we would host that I helped clean up
00:32:19
Speaker 2: a
00:32:20
Speaker 1: more confident person than I, because might be comfortable with the single path, but my my nature would be to to be the person who would say, are you sure? You know? And even like, so maybe we're cleaning up and they're really insisting go home, don't worry about it, we'll do it.
00:32:40
Speaker 1: I might, you know, um move around, gather up my things and then say, like before I've put on a jacket or anything before even look like I might head out a door, I would say, are you sure? I would really, I would feel so good about helping to clean up and and if they still say no, that's fine, you go home.
00:32:59
Speaker 1: I would still probably be the type to reach out the next morning and say hey do you want me to come over and like tidy up anything from the night before? Just give him every opportunity to say yes to you.
00:33:10
Speaker 1: I probably wouldn't say five times but 23 check ins I think. Yeah, I would, I probably would.
00:33:15
Speaker 2: It's funny as I was reading this question, I was imagining pushing much harder to do the hosting duties.
00:33:22
Speaker 2: I was thinking of myself that you would want to walk through the door assuming that you were going to play those roles and conducting yourself as if that was the expectation that you had and that they would have
00:33:33
Speaker 2: and what I'm hearing is as we're talking about it is that I think that there is something that could very easily start to happen, which would be that you might fall into the
00:33:43
Speaker 2: older host guest roles that you're used to playing when your parents are hosting you at their house and to really be ready for that host guest dance to start to creep into a situation where your goal and your desire is to really flip those roles
00:34:01
Speaker 2: and
00:34:02
Speaker 2: the more prepared that you are as you walk in to feel that happening or notice that happening, the better prepared you are going to be to make the kind and gentle directions to keep yourself in that hosting role that you can't stop them if they, if they insist it's their home and you've got to respect that,
00:34:20
Speaker 2: but that you can do some gentle reminding both in terms of how you conduct yourself and how you bring things up that also keeps your responsibility and that hosting that hosting level or that hosting category.
00:34:34
Speaker 1: Because one of the places where I was imagining that kind of um a little bit of give and take in that role of host that you put yourself in when you're hosting at someone else's house.
00:34:45
Speaker 1: Um came around things like the decor and the mention of music and that to me became things where I was like boy I'm really in someone else's home, maybe I won't try to unless they want me to, boy I'm in someone else's home,
00:35:02
Speaker 1: they might feel more comfortable with their own thanksgiving decor or putting on their own favorite, you know, music in the background for a party, that sort of thing because I'm imagining the host is in this place,
00:35:15
Speaker 1: some homeowners might absorb this would just be like this is fabulous, Someone else comes to my house host, the whole thing, does the cleaning, does the cooking, does the prep, does the decorating fix the music, there's just a beautiful party at my house. A lovely and I could see other homeowners feeling that desire
00:35:33
Speaker 1: to want to have that pumpkin display that they usually put out or you know put on that classical music that they love so much whatever it might be.
00:35:43
Speaker 1: Um And I would prepare myself to balance not just in those cooking and cleaning roles but also in in the decor and in kind of the greetings and the music and things like that. That helps set the atmosphere
00:35:56
Speaker 2: hosting for the holidays. We hope that this podcast reaches you in time and that some of our advice is useful or helpful as you go about hosting at a home that isn't yours. I don't think it will be alone this holiday playing this role and we wish you the very best and a very happy thanksgiving.
00:36:14
Speaker 2: Mhm.
00:36:15
Speaker 2: A well mannered group aren't they? You notice their good manners right away.
00:36:21
Speaker 2: Good manners make good first impressions and because your manners are showing all the time, they have a lot to do with how well people like you.
00:36:33
Speaker 2: This question involves neighborhood nice cities.
00:36:36
Speaker 2: When a longtime neighbor moves, which neighbor should express the goodbye the one moving or the one remaining
00:36:43
Speaker 2: Romeo
00:36:45
Speaker 1: Romeo. Thanks so much for the question.
00:36:48
Speaker 1: This is one where I mean there really is in some ways guys, correct me if I'm wrong but importance on the neighbor who is moving to communicate that they're actually moving because unless you actually see, you know the moving van and all of the moving taking place to get out of the house,
00:37:08
Speaker 1: your neighbor could move without you knowing. Absolutely. Like I think I do think even though I don't want to say it's the responsibility of, I think the nature of it is that the one who is moving has to at some point let the other neighbors know that they're moving.
00:37:22
Speaker 2: There was a very practical
00:37:24
Speaker 1: like starting
00:37:25
Speaker 2: point for this. Yes.
00:37:26
Speaker 1: But in terms of the goodbye once that knowledge is there. I mean obviously like we've got to kind of know the rough date,
00:37:33
Speaker 1: but sometime near near that date. Like if a neighbor told me, oh, we're moving at the end of the month, I think I would probably want to try to put in my good etiquette, good neighbor neighbor niceties cap the idea of going over to them, you know, either with a card or a little plate of cookies or something like that to say, you know,
00:37:52
Speaker 1: to sort of send them off to say goodbye and to say, I wish you well, you know, for where you're headed next.
00:37:57
Speaker 2: I think that's a natural reply to hearing someone tell you that they're going to be moving.
00:38:03
Speaker 1: Yeah,
00:38:04
Speaker 1: I
00:38:05
Speaker 2: think it would also be a relatively natural thing for someone to share the news that they're going to be moving and
00:38:12
Speaker 2: maybe if they didn't hear back from people or even if they just wanted to
00:38:17
Speaker 2: maybe follow up that sort of news with, or even include with that news the idea that we will miss you all. And it'd be lovely to get together and have a chance to say goodbye or reminisce or whatever, whatever the relationship has been to honor it in an appropriate way.
00:38:36
Speaker 1: It's also a pretty natural thing as the actual moving date approaches, especially that, that last week that you're in your spot
00:38:45
Speaker 1: to go around and just catch your neighbors, You know, whether that's stopping by and knocking on a door or it's given a phone call, you know, depends on how connected you are, but saying, hey, we're going to be taken off and I just want to let you know, you know, thanks so much for being a great neighbor or if you can't say that truthfully just wanted to let you know and hope that you take care
00:39:06
Speaker 1: all perfectly fine things to go do. And I think we see these things happen from a perspective of good etiquette in many different ways, especially given the situation, some neighbors stay in touch. Some neighbors don't, sometimes I had a neighbor moved just across the street and now we never see each other, like, you know, you think that moving just across the street, we'd still see each other a lot, but like
00:39:30
Speaker 2: it doesn't, I see the across, it wasn't a neighbor was across the street moved away. Someone moved from your side to the other
00:39:36
Speaker 1: side. No, it's exactly, and I should be a little more specific they moved from.
00:39:41
Speaker 1: Um, so I live on a corner on a corner lot. So I have two streets and they moved from the side street to actually a side street across from the main street. So it's, it's like, I don't see them in their yard anymore because I can't see their yard,
00:39:56
Speaker 1: but just that was enough. And then they really are only like two houses in on the street across the street. It's really funny.
00:40:02
Speaker 1: Um, you know, it's, it's funny, but it neighbors, you can keep in touch, you can say goodbye. You can, you can be the one moving and say goodbye. The one moving does though, that we're going to stick to that point. They do have to kind of let people know
00:40:19
Speaker 2: that they're moving. Well, there's no
00:40:21
Speaker 2: real etiquette rule about who says goodbye. It's certainly an option for both sides. I do think there is a good rule of etiquette that says goodbyes are important in the, in the same way we pay attention to how we introduce ourselves and how we manage first impressions and first encounters and introductions, that it also is important how we say goodbye
00:40:43
Speaker 2: and I think that it's a
00:40:45
Speaker 2: a really wise thing for people on either side of this equation to think about whether that goodbye has happened, whether it's been honored and to
00:40:54
Speaker 2: to take the initiative if it hasn't because it is an important part of a relationship and it often times
00:41:01
Speaker 2: creates room for relationships to continue or for new relationships to emerge or even just feels good to bring to completion something that may have mattered in your community to whatever extent your neighbor relationship mattered.
00:41:15
Speaker 1: Romeo, thank you so much for the question
00:41:18
Speaker 1: and we hope our answer helps for the next time you find yourself in this situation,
00:41:24
Speaker 1: we've missed that guy this week. All of us
00:41:28
Speaker 1: joe certainly made himself a friend of this
00:41:30
Speaker 2: whole bunch.
00:41:34
Speaker 1: Thank you for your questions. Please send us updates or feedback on our answers to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com or leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 K. I N. D. That's 8028585463.
00:41:49
Speaker 1: You can also reach us on social media on twitter. We're at Emily post inst on instagram. We are at Emily Post Institute
00:41:56
Speaker 1: and on facebook were awesome etiquette. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your social media posts so that we
00:42:02
Speaker 2: know you want your
00:42:03
Speaker 1: question on the show.
00:42:12
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:42:13
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:42:14
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:42:16
Speaker 2: If you love awesome etiquette, consider becoming a sustaining member. You can find out more about this by visiting us at patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette. You'll get an ads free version of the show and access to bonus questions and content. plus you'll feel great knowing that you helped to keep awesome etiquette on the air
00:42:33
Speaker 2: and to those of you who are already sustaining members. Thank you so much for your support.
00:42:37
Speaker 1: It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer and the topics we cover and today we have two totally different pieces of feedback on the same question, an issue which comes from episode 3 71 and it was the question where
00:42:55
Speaker 1: host was writing in about a guest who had been invited to a wedding that was an adults only wedding and the guest was either calling to say they'd like to show up with their baby and the baby could just be kept
00:43:05
Speaker 1: you know quiet in the carrier under the table or was showing up to the wedding with the baby and that was the topic that we were dealing with dan. Do you want to read our first piece of feedback?
00:43:16
Speaker 2: I would be delighted to do so. Okay, dear dan and lizzie,
00:43:20
Speaker 2: I vehemently disagree with your answer and episode 3 71 about the mother who showed up with a baby to an adults only wedding.
00:43:28
Speaker 2: People who do this know what they are doing and are relying on the hosts to be too polite to say anything.
00:43:34
Speaker 2: You just gave a bunch of rude people current blanche to do as they wish and force the hosts to suck it up,
00:43:41
Speaker 2: spend 10 minutes on Reddit and you will see this
00:43:44
Speaker 2: if this was a party maybe because you can always choose to not invite this person to another.
00:43:50
Speaker 2: But a wedding is mostly a once in a lifetime event. People put a lot of effort and money into
00:43:56
Speaker 2: the reply should be aunt Kathy, you do. This was an adult only event. You need to take Tyler home
00:44:03
Speaker 2: and dan to your friends who encouraged you to take your infants out when they are in the house plants. Stage plants don't scream. It was people with this attitude who ruined the anniversary dinner. My brother and I had planned for our parents. The couple at the table next to us
00:44:19
Speaker 2: had a very young child who woke up and screamed and screamed.
00:44:24
Speaker 2: The parents kept saying she will go back to sleep soon. You'll see.
00:44:28
Speaker 2: But five minutes later I had a splitting headache and was put off my food
00:44:32
Speaker 2: while two routes don't make a right. Having good etiquette should not force you to be a human doormat.
00:44:38
Speaker 2: I really hope you address this because I'm pretty disappointed in your advice. Best amy in concord
00:44:46
Speaker 2: amy, I am so sorry that you had a situation where someone screamed at a table next to you until you had a headache
00:44:53
Speaker 1: and
00:44:54
Speaker 2: I couldn't sympathize anymore and I don't think there's any tenet of good etiquette that says that
00:45:03
Speaker 2: anybody should be subjected to that. That you should or the establishment should have to take that or that those parents shouldn't take immediate action if
00:45:13
Speaker 2: they were hoping that their baby was gonna be able to sleep through a meal and it wasn't able to a
00:45:19
Speaker 1: little bit of fussing in a quiet down shore. But I can picture dan post setting as soon as his baby starts crying, picking baby up and walking away from the tables and then assessing whether or not this was going to be
00:45:31
Speaker 1: a short round of cry or a long enough round of cry that it was time to time to go. Um, just for for those who are thinking of bringing babies out, it's worth, it's worth considering what's your backup plan? If screaming or crying does start or if if a young child starts to to be in that zone.
00:45:48
Speaker 1: I did want to comment that I completely agree with Amy and conquered when she says, while two routes don't make a right having good etiquette should not force you to be a human doormat. And I think that's a point that I really appreciated seeing there because it's one dan and I really at least dan, I'm going to put words in your mouth. That's one dan and I really agree with
00:46:09
Speaker 1: and that there should be things where if you feel flexible enough to absorb the extra guests that you're being asked to absorb, go right ahead. If you really aren't an imposition to do. So then it's time to, to have a frank conversation about that,
00:46:24
Speaker 1: but I agree. I don't think anywhere we want people to feel like they are being walked over like they are being put upon to a degree that is,
00:46:33
Speaker 1: is really egregious for them.
00:46:35
Speaker 2: Amy asked for a reply and I guess my final thought for Amy is that I really appreciate your feedback. We get a lot of feedback when our advice works. I also really appreciate hearing when people don't agree with our advice. It really helps to flesh out and fill out all the different sides and approaches to a given situation.
00:46:52
Speaker 1: We mentioned that we had another response to this very same topic and it is the other end of the spectrum dan. Do you want to do you want to read this one as well?
00:47:01
Speaker 2: Dear experts
00:47:03
Speaker 2: in your most recent episode, you gave advice to somebody who was upset that new parents had decided to bring a baby to a wedding against the wishes of the happy couple who had opted for a formal adult only wedding.
00:47:15
Speaker 2: First, I feel a need to note as an anthropologist that all weddings are formal rites of passage no matter the guest list.
00:47:22
Speaker 2: Second, I found myself unsympathetic with the Oscar of the question
00:47:27
Speaker 2: I was raised in an environment where weddings first and foremost our family events. My husband and I got married with less than 20 people. But despite our talks of eloping, still invited all immediate family plus some of my child cousins who were just really excited, I was getting married
00:47:43
Speaker 2: while I realize some of this must be cultural. My ethnicity is best described as Scottish, Canadian. But I know this is not unique to my culture.
00:47:52
Speaker 2: What is your official etiquette position on disinviting Children? In the original question, we were told that the offending mother is a relative.
00:48:00
Speaker 2: My parents have talked about a cousin having no Children wedding when I was a baby and they felt this meant they and other relatives were pointedly being asked not to come because they would not have been able to afford childcare for an entire weekend
00:48:13
Speaker 2: plus the expense of attending the wedding.
00:48:15
Speaker 2: I can imagine this feeling all the more pointed. If it had been someone closer to them like a sibling,
00:48:21
Speaker 2: I can't imagine not having my nieces at my wedding.
00:48:25
Speaker 2: I feel like it's extremely selfish and unkind to host a wedding, invite friends and relatives but specifically exclude Children in my mind. This is tantamount to making a statement that the Children in your life are not important to you.
00:48:38
Speaker 2: But maybe I am the one who was thinking unreasonably. I would love to hear your thoughts on the best etiquette practices when it comes to inviting Children. All the best
00:48:47
Speaker 2: pro family weddings.
00:48:50
Speaker 1: Pro family weddings. Thank you for your different perspective on on weddings and for asking the question
00:48:57
Speaker 1: in the way that you did at the end because I feel like it, it allows both dan and I, you know, separately even to give our perspectives back to you. For me, I really put it to the couple that it's up to them to decide
00:49:11
Speaker 1: how they would like their wedding to be. And for you, it's really clear that that having those Children at the wedding was an important part about it. You say, I can't imagine not having my nieces at my wedding.
00:49:22
Speaker 1: I remember as a child like this is like first memory stuff, I'm pretty sure it is like my youngest memory is of being dropped off at my grandparents but um Poppy's house to be left with them for my first weekend away from my family um remember crying really really hard.
00:49:40
Speaker 1: My mom, my dad and my older sister were all going to my aunt's wedding where my older sister was going to get to be a flower girl and I was young enough to understand that that was important and cool, she got to spread flowers down an aisle and and it was like going to be a thing
00:49:56
Speaker 1: and I was not invited because there were no Children aside from my sister who was the only child like the flower girl and that it's for some people it's uh it's gonna be a hard and fast thing for other people, it's going to cause divides between even siblings at a wedding and whether or not they attend
00:50:16
Speaker 1: and for other people it's not going to be a big deal,
00:50:19
Speaker 1: but I think it's the reality is is what's the couple asking for? How would they like their wedding to be
00:50:27
Speaker 1: so far in etiquette? I can't come up with a reason that states that families must be included or that Children must be included. I wouldn't go so far as to assume that if you're invited to an adults only wedding, that the intent behind the adults only part of it is to make sure that you don't come
00:50:46
Speaker 1: to the wedding. I think they really
00:50:48
Speaker 1: I mean the adults are being invited but that it's it's not going to be a wedding where kids are going to be a part of it.
00:50:54
Speaker 2: I think that's probably a good read lizzie post and it might be a mechanism sometimes to exclude certain people, but I think one of the tenants of good etiquette is that you don't assume bad intent or deceptive intent
00:51:08
Speaker 2: in other people. I think that you were operating at your best when you take people at face value. And
00:51:14
Speaker 2: I think like you that from an etiquette perspective, Children or no Children is still a hosting choice and something that people get to make. And then the question becomes how you handle that and how you manage that, that choice, once you've made your decision, how you communicate about it, how you deal with people who honor or don't honor the parameters that you set up as a host when their guests.
00:51:36
Speaker 2: I also really appreciate
00:51:39
Speaker 2: pro family weddings, thoughts on the inclusion of Children and the ways that
00:51:44
Speaker 2: weddings function in our lives. Whether they have what we think of as as the traditional marks of formality or whether or not the import of a wedding comes from the ultimate significance that at that moment has in any couple's life and it's really being that significance that invests the ceremony and the day and the experience with
00:52:09
Speaker 2: the
00:52:11
Speaker 2: you could call it the formality or the importance of the event itself.
00:52:15
Speaker 1: Pro family weddings and Amy and conquered. Thank you both very much for your detailed and strong feedback to this particular question. We really appreciate the breadth of opinion that it allows us to see when it comes to this particular topic.
00:52:33
Speaker 1: Mhm.
00:52:35
Speaker 2: Thank you for sending us your thoughts and updates. Please do keep them coming. You can send your next question feedback or update to awesome etiquette Emily post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463.
00:52:53
Speaker 2: Mhm.
00:52:58
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:53:00
Speaker 1: It's time for our postscript segment where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette and today we're going to discuss
00:53:07
Speaker 1: setting the thanksgiving day table because it's thanksgiving week. It's my favorite holiday. I say that every year on the show when we get to thanksgiving because but it really is my favorite holiday
00:53:18
Speaker 1: and I do it again
00:53:19
Speaker 2: next year.
00:53:20
Speaker 1: I love the meal even when my family switched to doing a porchetta instead of a turkey. I still love the meal and it's so good and it's so wonderful and I occasionally get a little bit bored with the table that we set at home only because it is the exact same one every single year. But we do have a wonderful and classic Emily post etiquette table setting video that we invite you to visit this week
00:53:46
Speaker 1: to help inspire you to set your table. You will see my mother and I said our holiday table
00:53:51
Speaker 1: and that's kind of become an annual tradition. But table setting for, for a big special event is a lot of fun. It's special. It's different from our every day and that's only if we're going to do it right because some people eat on laps in front of football or something and that's the tradition.
00:54:09
Speaker 1: Sorry, because I just like got way too excited about holiday table setting come in here and rain me back into it. I'm not
00:54:15
Speaker 2: raining anything in.
00:54:16
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna from
00:54:18
Speaker 2: sure your dive off the deep end because I am the person who will be sitting on thursday watching our website crash repeatedly as it deals with a level of traffic that it sees on no other day of the year
00:54:31
Speaker 2: and the search that will drive that traffic is how do I set the table table setting, table setting guides and um every bit of data that we can save from being flow from flowing through our website on thursday is a bonus.
00:54:47
Speaker 1: So you know what I've always dreamed for that website section I keep wishing and we, we often ask for it, but we asked people to send us their holiday table and I want to get a gallery. That's just an example of all that. Like just just tons of like our own little mini Pinterest section on that website. That's all these different
00:55:07
Speaker 1: uh table settings sent in by by our listeners and audience
00:55:10
Speaker 2: hashtag awesome
00:55:11
Speaker 1: etiquette. I know, yeah, like so send us your pictures and use the hashtag awesome etiquette with them. We want to see them, you can email them, you can post them on social media and tag us
00:55:21
Speaker 1: whatever works we want to start harvesting and have a gallery ready for you for next year.
00:55:26
Speaker 1: But we do have a postscript to do in the meantime and I better on,
00:55:29
Speaker 2: we can't just be excited about setting the table. We have to talk about it.
00:55:33
Speaker 1: We got to actually give advice exactly
00:55:36
Speaker 2: because take us through some basics and then take us through a few little details.
00:55:40
Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, so the basics of the table setting and we actually don't talk about this that much on the show, but are the forks are set to the left of the plate or the center of the setting and the knives and the spoons are then set to the right and that we tend to set these utensils in the order of which we are going to need them. So from the outside in, we're working from that first course
00:56:06
Speaker 1: to the next course to the main course
00:56:08
Speaker 1: in each grouping of fork, knife and spoon. Often the next thing that I tend to think of is our bread plate, which would be set on the left, just above where the forks are, and that comes with its little butter knife usually. And then
00:56:23
Speaker 1: over on the right is where we're going to put our glasses and our water glass acts as kind of an anchor and it sits right off the tip of the knife that like kind of a 45 degree angle towards towards the top right of the knife
00:56:36
Speaker 1: and it sits there as an anchor, it's going to remain there for the majority of the meal after that. It kind of depends on whether you're going to group your glasses or whether you're going to have them kind of cascade out in a line that goes sort of diagonally down to the right of the setting.
00:56:53
Speaker 1: And if you're cascading, you're going to put the glasses that you're going to use first furthest out. So just like your silverware outside in if you're grouping, you often put the glasses that will come first sort of closest to that knife for that water glass. And then group them as you move further back to the glasses that you'd use
00:57:14
Speaker 1: further along in the meal lizzie post. Let me interrupt
00:57:16
Speaker 2: for one second question
00:57:17
Speaker 1: to ask. Yes. Yes.
00:57:19
Speaker 2: What about the napkin?
00:57:21
Speaker 1: Okay. So I was leaving the napkin because I know that somebody has some thoughts on the napkin and setting the napkin in ways
00:57:30
Speaker 2: we only
00:57:32
Speaker 1: have to touch it
00:57:33
Speaker 1: with, you know what barely touched the napkin to unfold it dan. And I had quite the discussion about napkins and napkin folding when we got Tricia post involved as well, it was an even greater and and almost ridiculous conversation about napkins and how they're used and best used.
00:57:50
Speaker 1: But because you actually have some really fabulous tips for the napkins. So do you want to, you want to lay them out right here?
00:57:55
Speaker 2: No, I guess the thing I was thinking of was that the napkin is most commonly found to the left of the plate with the forks and
00:58:05
Speaker 2: while it's entirely appropriate for it to drift under the fork, sometimes it's set under the forks or even to the center of the plate where you will also find it sometimes that to the left of the forks is just a nice easy place to think of the napkin and when you talk about that um
00:58:21
Speaker 2: That detailed discussion that we got
00:58:23
Speaker 1: into
00:58:24
Speaker 2: it involved folding the napkin in such a way that when you just picked it up by the top left corner that it just sort of opens as you pick it up into the air, which makes it really easy to lay down into your lap. And
00:58:38
Speaker 2: if the napkin is elaborately folded into some shape that doesn't quite happen. There's more of a process of unfolding it.
00:58:44
Speaker 1: And if it's under the forks, you have to lift the forks to get to it. So there was this elegance and formality about the napkin being presented in such a way.
00:58:54
Speaker 2: Exactly. And you like to laugh at me for that. Sometimes
00:58:58
Speaker 1: I like to tease you about it because I just think it's a it's just fun. We the two of us have like funny little details that we glom onto and get excited about or interested in truth and that's one of yours. And so I just like I delight in in the fact that that's true.
00:59:13
Speaker 2: Well thank you for letting me interrupt and talk about napkins for a minute. Please do continue with the rest of the silver
00:59:19
Speaker 1: to other pieces of silverware that we haven't talked about yet are the dessert fork and spoon. And sometimes these are brought out with the dessert. And so there's there's no need to set them out at the table and other times they will be placed at the top of your setting with the dessert fork
00:59:33
Speaker 1: having its handle to the left and it's times to the right
00:59:38
Speaker 1: and below it. If you're using a dessert spoon as well would be placed the dessert spoon with its the bowl of the spoon on the left and its handle pointing to the right. And the reason for this is that once all the rest of the silver has been cleared,
00:59:51
Speaker 1: those two implements can just slide right down into their respective places with the fork on the left and the spoon on the right and there,
00:59:59
Speaker 1: they're sort of nice and neatly moved into place without any twisting or flipping. That needs to go on. But that's your basic, we say basic. It was actually pretty formal table setting that we just described, but that's sort of the basic idea for a more formalized meal. A lot of us might not have things like appetizers or courses. And so we'll just be setting one fork, one knife and the dessert silverware.
01:00:25
Speaker 1: Others are going to do a buffet and nothing will even be set at the table. But it's really fun to take a minute and actually lay out a table setting on this podcast because I think it's really etiquette
01:00:35
Speaker 2: e lizzie boast. Take us through some little touches at the table.
01:00:39
Speaker 1: Okay, so these are the fun things. This is the stuff that I really liked putting out when I was a kid and my dear, sweet mother always put us in charge
01:00:47
Speaker 1: of the place cards and things like that because it was where we could have a little artistic flair. And so I'm a big fan of when we have a bit of a more formalized or special meal at the table using those place cards and thinking of a seating chart for the table. You don't have to go, you know, alternating gender order. You know, you don't have to think about it as seats of honor or things like that. This can even still before sort of a more casual gathering at the table. But those place cards are a nice little element
01:01:15
Speaker 1: and there are some really fabulous companies online that do this and Mr peace place cards is one of my personal favorites, some of the other elements that you can think about for the table, the little touches. Some folks use napkin rings.
01:01:28
Speaker 1: Traditionally, napkin rings were used so that you could identify whose napkin was whose and have it be reused if it didn't need to be cleaned.
01:01:37
Speaker 1: But they
01:01:38
Speaker 2: has formal technique.
01:01:39
Speaker 1: So you would think of them as less formal. But in our wonderful world of decorating and creativity. And table scapes,
01:01:48
Speaker 1: napkin rings have become more formalized. There something that you wouldn't see at a super formal event. It would be more what dan described with the napkin just laid to the left so that you could pick it up in one motion,
01:01:59
Speaker 1: but they can be really fun. They can add some wonderful decor to the table and it is perfectly fine to use them.
01:02:07
Speaker 1: And this is the one where I get a little geeky dan. I'm going to admit that when we're talking about a special meal. I tend to think of my mom's super fancy salt cellars and ornately decorated pepper shakers instead of sort of my everyday salt and pepper shaker unit that I've got.
01:02:26
Speaker 1: And I like the fact that we have a couple of them and so you can set them at different kind of intervals along the table.
01:02:33
Speaker 1: Uh some people go the uber classy formal route of having one set for each individual diner. But there's, there's lots of different ways that you could think about even sprucing up your salt and pepper game as you're thinking about setting your holiday table and trying to juice things up a little bit.
01:02:50
Speaker 1: The final thing that I wanted to talk about was centerpieces and you've heard us discuss center pieces before on this podcast, but it's always a really great reminder that they are a place of expression on the table. They are a place of fun. They make the table look festive. I mean, so do all the other linens and we haven't even talked about those today,
01:03:09
Speaker 1: but the centerpiece can be a wonderfully festive aspect of your table. I do want to caution people from letting them get too big or starting to encroach too much on a diner's actual dining space, you don't want them to be too high so that they block diners from being able to see one another across the table. Um, sometimes you'll see those really big column vases
01:03:32
Speaker 1: and they often get used to help elevate that uh, spectacular arrangements so high up in the air that guests can see and you don't want that column or that pillar that's holding at the vase to be too too wide that people can't see around it. But it is one way to tackle height and and still get the eye contact that you're looking for people to be able to make.
01:03:52
Speaker 1: The other thing that you kind of don't want to do with centerpieces is to have them be aromatic.
01:03:57
Speaker 1: You really do not want the aroma from the flowers or anything else that you've put into the arrangement to compete with the food or to confuse the diners senses. Okay, those are kind of some of the donuts out of the way
01:04:14
Speaker 1: because the really fun part of the centerpiece conversation is to get out the idea that you can incorporate so many other things
01:04:21
Speaker 1: than flowers into a great centerpiece. And so when, when I'm thinking about what we might put at a centerpiece for um, something like a really seasonal meal like thanksgiving. I'm thinking about fruits of the season, that might look really good.
01:04:41
Speaker 1: I saw an incredible table setting recently, which we will be posting to instagram this week.
01:04:46
Speaker 1: It had books, it had antlers. It had, I am not joking you. An old school, It was either an adding machine or a typing machine or a stent graft machine or something like that. Had I'm telling you it had an iron horse figurine. So you could think about little figurines and in chastity like items that are around your home.
01:05:07
Speaker 1: Um there are so many different things that you could gather and incorporate into a theme of seasonal centerpiece for thanksgiving centerpiece. Yes, there were books in this one which was really, really cool. It's there's just so much that you could do
01:05:24
Speaker 1: to create a really dynamic centerpiece
01:05:28
Speaker 1: that that just makes everyone feel delighted and like they are arriving at a really special table. Okay because I just geeked out for a long time. They're really back in
01:05:41
Speaker 2: please. I'm not about to not for a second. Navarra Herbie
01:05:45
Speaker 2: help me with my vocab is cornucopia like a basket that looks like a horn with all kinds of stuff spilling out of it.
01:05:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a big horn and there's all the harvest stuff like just spilling right out of it. And
01:05:57
Speaker 2: yes, you took me there. It took me
01:05:59
Speaker 1: there.
01:06:02
Speaker 2: Well, I hope that you took our audience there as well and I hope that everybody has as much fun with their holiday table this year as you and your mother do and I hope that if people are looking for inspiration, they take you up on your advice to visit our website and to watch you and precious at the table because
01:06:18
Speaker 2: it is something that I know you enjoy and it really comes through.
01:06:23
Speaker 1: It sure is. I will definitely be very happy on thanksgiving morning when I am doing all these little things with my family
01:06:30
Speaker 1: And I hope that however you choose to celebrate thanksgiving that you are filled with gratitude and able to connect with those you love.
01:06:39
Speaker 1: There is happiness in the air
01:06:45
Speaker 1: and the smell of turkey.
01:06:50
Speaker 1: Mm
01:06:51
Speaker 1: mm That does look good.
01:06:56
Speaker 1: Mm
01:07:01
Speaker 2: We like to end our show on a high note. So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing and that can come in so many forms. Today we have a salute from our own chris Albertine.
01:07:13
Speaker 1: Hi dan and lizzie. I have an etiquette salute for you
01:07:17
Speaker 1: recently my wife and I had an extended trip to Ireland. We stayed in a house in the Dublin suburbs and had no car. We relied on mass transit to travel all over the country and within the city itself. No problem. Right, well at first we hadn't a clue how to even pay for it, let alone
01:07:38
Speaker 1: which of the 19 busses we should use to get downtown
01:07:43
Speaker 1: but the irish people were more than happy to go out of their way to explain it to us. A kind store clerk showed us how to buy the correct transit pass. Sounds easy but there were about 1000 options. So after 15 minutes we had our passes.
01:08:01
Speaker 1: Once we got on the bus, the driver and awaiting passengers were patient While we figured out how to use the pass, nobody grumbled no one loudly. Side
01:08:12
Speaker 1: as we became regular commuters, we then noticed on every trip when leaving the bus that everyone said goodbye or thank you to the driver while exiting. A simple thing but noteworthy
01:08:26
Speaker 1: also, even though there was no enforcement passengers calmly complied with wearing masks in the bus and trains and public spaces. Again, everyone
01:08:39
Speaker 1: at stops for the train, passengers are required to swipe the transit cards at a kiosk on the platform before entering the train.
01:08:49
Speaker 1: It was an honor system of complete self enforcement.
01:08:53
Speaker 1: Again, people just did it as if there was no choice
01:08:57
Speaker 1: being someone born and raised in new york city. This astounded me.
01:09:02
Speaker 1: There was never any pushing or shoving, friendly conversations among strangers were a regular occurrence. As soon as we opened a map, there was a flurry of people that would offer help with directions. Some folks even went out of their way to guide us to our destinations.
01:09:21
Speaker 1: And good behavior wasn't just on busses and trains. It was retail workers, wait staff, tour guides and even pets.
01:09:29
Speaker 1: Overall throughout the country of Ireland there was an air of civility and general kindness that blew us away.
01:09:38
Speaker 1: So a tip of the hat to the people of Ireland chris.
01:09:44
Speaker 1: It got me teary eyed, I mean they all
01:09:47
Speaker 2: do and the tip of our hat
01:09:49
Speaker 1: to chris and Betsy
01:09:51
Speaker 2: for a salute and chris. It is so good to get some of your voice on the show. I can't wait to maybe someday get your actual voice on the show so that people can't just hear your sentiments but your voice itself, it is such a treat to have you back.
01:10:06
Speaker 1: Chris, thank you so much for the salute
01:10:13
Speaker 1: and thank you for listening
01:10:16
Speaker 2: and thank you to everyone who sent us something and everyone supports us on Patreon.
01:10:20
Speaker 1: Please connect with this show and share it with whomever you can. Any way
01:10:25
Speaker 2: that you can, you can send us your next question feedback or salute by email to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com.
01:10:32
Speaker 2: You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kinds. That's 8028585463 on twitter. We're at Emily post inst on instagram, we are at Emily Post Institute and on facebook were awesome etiquette. Hand the Emily Post Institute,
01:10:48
Speaker 1: please consider becoming a sustaining member by visiting us at patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette. Where memberships start at just a dollar a month.
01:10:58
Speaker 1: You can also subscribe to the ads version of our show on Spotify or your favorite podcast app and please consider leaving us a review. It helps our show ranking, which helps more people find awesome etiquette.
01:11:10
Speaker 2: Our show is edited by Kris Albertine. An assistant produced by Bridget Dowd.
01:11:14
Speaker 1: Thanks chris
01:11:23
Speaker 1: Oh,
01:11:24
Speaker 1: oh
01:11:25
Speaker 1: okay
